Do plats attached to legal descriptions need to be stamped?

[dedkad]

Section 8761(d) of the SMA states: "All final maps, plats, reports, descriptions, or other land surveying documents issued by a licensed land surveyor or civil engineer authorized to practice land surveying shall bear the signature and seal or stamp of the licensee and the date of signing and sealing or stamping. If the land surveying document has multiple pages or sheets, the signature, seal or stamp, and date of signing and sealing or stamping shall appear, at a minimum, on the title sheet, cover sheet or page, or signature sheet, unless otherwise required by law."

I am debating with another surveyor on whether or not a plat attached to a legal description needs to also be stamped and signed by the surveyor. I contend that the SMA requires that the plat also be signed. He contends that the plat is attached to the legal description and is therefore part of the entire legal description and the SMA requires only one page of a multi-page document to be stamped. I'd like to hear what others have to say.

[Peter Ehlert]

You do not need to sign and seal each page of a document.

[bruce hall]

plat is a part of "it", then no, one signature and seal is all that is required in my brain.

"See attached Exhibit A made a part of hereof" or something like that.

[Dave Lindell]

I stamp and sign each page to make sure no one can slip a false page into the series.

[btaylor]

plat is a part of "it", then no, one signature and seal is all that is required in my brain.

"See attached Exhibit A made a part of hereof" or something like that.

I agree, yet a very delayed lot line adjustment package at one of the local agencies here pulled the "everything looks good but you didn't stamp the plat" thing on me and I sensed if I argued the matter it would delay things a lot more than just re-printing and mailing another set.

We need to get the memo out on this so we can all get on board in the future.

[land butcher]

TOOOOOO many times local agencies make requirements that are they cannot make, but most projects are in a fast trak mode and many times it's not in the client's best interest to argue the point if it's going to delay the approval. This is where a letter should be sent to the board and they send a letter to the offending agency.
Not gonna hold my breath on that happening.

[Mike Hartley]

While definitely related to each other, the legal description and the associated exhibit map (plat) are different documents in my opinion. As such, each one should be stamped/signed. If the description is multiple pages, only one page needs to be stamped/signed because you don't have to sign each page of a document. Similarly, if the exhibit map is multiple pages, only one page needs to be stamped/signed.

Plus this way I can now charge double when an unlicensed person offering "surveying" services calls and asks "how much will you charge to stamp the legal description I prepared?" ... just kidding.

[Lee Hixson]

I'm with Mike on this one.

[Stephen Johnson]

I have always done mine like Mike and Lee.

BTW, Over the years I have found that I nearly always agree with Mr. Hixson.

[Johnston]

Call the legal "Exhibit A - Part One", and the plat "Exhibit A -Part Two" and use just a single stamp and signature.

[JoeC]

I personally dont think it is required but more of a preference. As long as the document has your signature and stamp, I would not get heartburn over it.
I for one do sign and stamp both exhibits.

[dedkad]

I contacted the Board to inquire about this issue. In my correspondence I included as an example a legal description (Exhibit A) that referenced and incorporated herein an attached plat (Exhibit B). Their response was:

"Both the legal description and the map (aka sketch, plat, etc.) are separate documents within the context of 8761(d) and both should be signed and sealed by the licensee....In discussing the matter with Mr. Moore, it was noted that often the plat map is separated from the legal description which causes problems if it is an unsigned/unstamped document."

So there you have it.

[btaylor]

Well okay then. I stand corrected.

[Warren Smith]

Good to know!

[bruce hall]

something today.

[PLS7393]

No one mentioned that they don't sign and stamp every page of a final map, only one page where the Surveyor's Statement (Certificate) is. The legal description which includes verbiage "A plat of the above described land is attached hereto and made a part hereof" should include the plat without a stamp and signature, so am curious why the Board feels differently. They say the plat can get separated, but to what extent, because the plat can not be recorded separately as a description? Even though I will stamp and sign the plat if there is room and I feel like it to protect my drawing, lol.

[Peter Ehlert]

I was confused by the wording of the original post.
The answer you receive depends on how the question is asked: "Exhibit A that referenced and incorporated herein an attached plat Exhibit B"
obviously 2 documents

... however I contend a single document with multiple pages only needs one stamp and sig.
that document can be a legal description on one page (page x of x) and a drawing on another page (page y of x).
yes, very often it is Ex A and Ex B, the trigger as you created two documents.

[JoeC]

dedkad – can you post the letter you received from the Board for reference? I would like to get a copy of it.

[dedkad]

Joe, it wasn't a letter just an email response. Here it is:

I have always thought that a plat needed to bear the stamp of the land surveyor that prepared it. However, to make sure I am providing you with the correct information, I asked the Board’s Executive Office, Ric Moore, who is a licensed surveyor to provide me with a response. He advised me that both the legal description and the map (aka sketch, plat, etc.) are separate documents within the context of 8761(d) and both should be signed and sealed by the licensee. Occasionally, the legal description being prepared by the land surveyor may extend to multiple pages within itself and the same could be said for the exhibit map portion. In those cases, affixing the signature and seal to only one page of the legal description or one of the exhibit map pages would be considered appropriate and in compliance with 8761(d) as long as those pages clearly depict that multiple pages of the same document exist for a complete document. (i.e., the description pages could include “Page 1 of 3 Pages, or the exhibit map pages could include a notation that stated “Sheet 1 of 3 Sheetsâ€￾). In either case the legal description and the plat map need to be stamped and signed by the licensed surveyor who prepared them.

In discussing the matter with Mr. Moore, it was noted that often the plat map is separated from the legal description which causes problems if it is an unsigned/unstamped document.

Let me know if you have any additional questions.

Sincerely,

Sally Strubinger
Enforcement Analyst
Board for Professional Engineers, Land Surveyors, and Geologists
2535 Capitol Oaks Drive, Suite 300
Sacramento, CA 95833-2926
http://www.bpelsg.ca.gov/
(916) 263-2251
Sally.Strubinger@dca.ca.gov

[dedkad]

I was confused by the wording of the original post.
The answer you receive depends on how the question is asked: "Exhibit A that referenced and incorporated herein an attached plat Exhibit B"
obviously 2 documents

... however I contend a single document with multiple pages only needs one stamp and sig.
that document can be a legal description on one page (page x of x) and a drawing on another page (page y of x).
yes, very often it is Ex A and Ex B, the trigger as you created two documents.

The legal description I sent them was labeled Exhibit C-1 and included the wording: "The above described property contains 96 square feet, more or less, and is shown graphically on Exhibit C-2 attached hereto and incorporated herein."

I think the point being is that it has nothing to do with how you package the legal description or reference the plat, they are considered two separate documents and require two separate stamps and signatures.

[Peter Ehlert]

Joe, it wasn't a letter just an email response. Here it is:

I have always thought that a plat needed to bear the stamp of the land surveyor that prepared it. However, to make sure I am providing you with the correct information, I asked the Boards Executive Office, Ric Moore, who is a licensed surveyor to provide me with a response. He advised me that both the legal description and the map (aka sketch, plat, etc.) are separate documents within the context of 8761(d) and both should be signed and sealed by the licensee. Occasionally, the legal description being prepared by the land surveyor may extend to multiple pages within itself and the same could be said for the exhibit map portion. In those cases, affixing the signature and seal to only one page of the legal description or one of the exhibit map pages would be considered appropriate and in compliance with 8761(d) as long as those pages clearly depict that multiple pages of the same document exist for a complete document. (i.e., the description pages could include Page 1 of 3 Pages, or the exhibit map pages could include a notation that stated Sheet 1 of 3 Sheets). In either case the legal description and the plat map need to be stamped and signed by the licensed surveyor who prepared them.

In discussing the matter with Mr. Moore, it was noted that often the plat map is separated from the legal description which causes problems if it is an unsigned/unstamped document.

Let me know if you have any additional questions.

Sincerely,

Sally Strubinger
Enforcement Analyst
Board for Professional Engineers, Land Surveyors, and Geologists
2535 Capitol Oaks Drive, Suite 300
Sacramento, CA 95833-2926
http://www.bpelsg.ca.gov/
(916) 263-2251
Sally.Strubinger@dca.ca.gov

Thanks, Context is EVERYTHING!

So, if you have 7 pages of a document that says there are 8 pages total ... then you are just wild guessing what that document Really is.
I often write legals where a sketch is an essential part of the entire document.
If someone deletes pages then it is Not the document I prepared.

[Johnston]

Call the legal "Exhibit A - Part One of Two", and the plat "Exhibit A -Part Two of Two" and use just a single stamp and signature. Cross referencing of the pieces of the single work product happens via the title of each piece of the exhibit and via the recorders labeling of every page. It's a single product, like an engineers report that includes tables, maps, etc. If it needs a name call it an "other land surveying document" as provided for in 8761(d).

We can't be responsible for how someone might use or misuse pieces of our products.

(d) All final maps, plats, reports, descriptions, or other land
surveying documents issued by a licensed land surveyor or civil
engineer authorized to practice land surveying shall bear the
signature and seal or stamp of the licensee and the date of signing
and sealing or stamping. If the land surveying document has multiple
pages or sheets, the signature, seal or stamp, and date of signing
and sealing or stamping shall appear, at a minimum, on the title
sheet, cover sheet or page, or signature sheet, unless otherwise
required by law.

[Darth Vader]

Do any of you see the description recorded as a separate document from the plat? Does it happen on a regular basis? I have plenty of recorded easements and grants to public agencies that the description and plat are recorded as one instrument. I looked through my files and cant find any that the description was in a separate document from the plat. So why would the board require two signatures for one recorded document? It certainly is not the way I read the law.

8761(d) & If the land surveying document has multiple pages or sheets, the signature, seal or stamp, and date of signing and sealing or stamping shall appear, at a minimum, on the title sheet, cover sheet or page, or signature sheet, unless otherwise required by law.

[Bruce Johnson]

Look at this from another angle:

As a reviewer of said document(s) prior to approval and recordation, having the legal description and exhibit stamped and signed ensures, or should at least, that the actual LS involved has knowledge of the work product.

And yes, I HAVE looked at such documents where it was patently obvious that the LS in charge had never even SEEN, much less reviewed, what was being sent out (by their own admission in several cases).

Are we actually arguing about the ink involved, or the time needed to stamp and sign twice? I think I have spent more time reading this thread than I will save in the next year by only stamping/signing once instead of twice.

[btaylor]

Are we actually arguing about the ink involved, or the time needed to stamp and sign twice? I think I have spent more time reading this thread than I will save in the next year by only stamping/signing once instead of twice.

For me it is about the space needed. Depending on the map checker, I have had to add a vicinity map and other items that clog things up.

Sometimes there is plently of space but I prefer not to have a stamp take up room on a plat. I dislike putting too much clutter within the parcel being drawn up, and that can be the only place to fit the stamp so it does not cover lines or courses.