Digital Discomfort

[Jim Frame]

For the last two years I've been working sporadically on a new courthouse project. Lately the need has been for bond sale, right-of-way vacation and dedication descriptions and plats. As is often the case with any complex project, things have progressed in fits and starts, but when they start to move everyone wants them to move instantly.

This morning, while I was in the field on an unrelated project, I received an email from a court staffer saying that she needed one of the descriptions separate from the others, and reformatted so that it's on plain paper, i.e. no letterhead. Naturally, she needed it today to meet some deadline or another. I didn't reply immediately, since there was nothing I could do about it at the time, but when I got back to the office there was another email from the same person, saying that she'd taken my original description (comprising several parcels and multiple pages), extracted the desired description along with my signature and seal, and created a new document, which she attached for my review. She asked if it was okay for her to submit the new document.

I compared the description to my original to make sure nothing got left out or added, and it was fine. I gave her the okay to proceed, but the whole matter left me feeling really uneasy. I politely cautioned her (and everyone else whom she had cc'd) that the licensee has to be able to control what goes out under his signature and seal in spite of any deadlines, and thanked her for asking permission to use the new document. I have no doubt that everyone on the team understands this. Still, the whole affair made real what we've all known for a long time: that digital tools make it really easy to create documents that appear to have originated with a licensee, even when he/she is unaware of their existence.

I'm still left with a vague sense that there's something not right about what happened. I've reviewed §8461 (B&P Code) and §411 (Board Rules), and didn't see anything prohibiting a digitally-reproduced signature or seal. Am I overlooking something, or is this just something we have to deal with in the age of digital documents?

.

[Lee Hixson]

This made me think about those disclaimers that some of the bigger firms insist be included at the bottom of all emails. Perhaps a surveyor-specific one is called for that would include references to the LS Act, and be included with any digital transmission of descriptions (and maps).

[cals6406]

When I "digitally sign" an acrobat pdf of one of my legal descriptions, it locks the pdf and any changes to the pdf invalidates my digital signature.

I do not allow anyone to affix a scan of my signature to any document and call that a "digital signature".

Without the "locking" provided by Acrobat (and other software) I would not give permission to anyone to use one of my legal descriptions.

If I have have authorized it, I have digitally signed it and it is a locked pdf.

Or wet-signed the document.

(that doesn't mean that the software can't be beat)

[Peter Ehlert]

Jim: Unfortunately it is not a new thing, had it happen to me (co-worker Engineer) in 1987... in the early days of high quality Xerox.

I have seen some real good quality cut and paste, it happens, and will continue.
Glad you treated it in a business like manner...
... back in '87 I was young and got very Hot, made a big stink: it echoed in the halls for several years,

[E_Page]

Extracting the description can have been helpful, iffy, or totally out of line depending upon the person's level of knowledge, their intent, and the actual manner in which the resulting description is handled.

It sounds as if this person had an adequate level of knowledge and/or the task was sufficiently simple that extracting the description to form a stand-alone one that she did that just fine.

She did have you approve it before running with it, so in this particular instance, "no harm, no foul." But what if you had not received the emails at all? Suppose you were on an out of town project in a location that did not have network coverage, not returning until well after close of business - or any other circumstance that would have prevented you from either receiving the messages or responding to them? Would she have sent the description with the forged seal and signature without your approval?

In the way this all happened, I would have handled it much as you did, being appreciative of having the document ready for my review, but not appreciating the application of my seal and signature. In somewhat similar (in-house) situation in tha past, in which a prelim drawing that I had not reviewed was going to get sent out with my CAD produced stamp (but w/o signature), I had the CAD operator replot without my stamp and had him delete the block. It has since been my policy that both my signature and my stamp will only be applied by my hand alone.

No yelling, indignation or histrionics. Just a simple explanation of my policy on that score and why it is that way. Now if someone had cobbled something together by adding to my drawings or reports and or applying my seal and signature (electronically or otherwise) and distributed that work for some commercial or official purpose prior to consulting me, yelling, indignation and histrionics would be a distinct likelihood.

[Stephen Johnson]

In that last situation I personally would add criminal charges of fraud and a civil suit for damages. I get REALLY irritated at people who act so fraudulently.

[PLS7393]

Digital signatures can be dangerous, not to mention scanned and used by others too easily. It was an early practice of mine to only use wet signatures and always across my stamp. One has to take pride in their license and keep it out of harms way, as I have seen architects take a surveyors stamp and re-use it on plans without the surveyors knowledge.

[Jim Frame]

It was an early practice of mine to only use wet signatures and always across my stamp.

With the availability of cheap high-res scanners, your signature across your seal is as easily duplicated as those originally delivered in digital format. Absent a legal requirement that all professional deliverables be wet-signed and wet-sealed (i.e., no reproductions allowed), we'll are vulnerable to forgery.

.

[land butcher]

Not that forgery has not happened in the past, but digital stamps and signatures is ripe for fraud. Not sure how to prevent it with the high res scanners these days.
I'm guessing we need a rule stating that a person can use digital or xeroxed media but only the copy with the wet stamp is valid.
Not sure how that will effect us using copies of record maps, etc to validate our surveys.

[LS 4722]

In this day and age, our main deliverables really consist of a Cadd file and a PDF file. I also include a couple of wet signed copies.

For the Cadd file I strip out anything that has my name, seal, etc and send that type of cadd file out. I was burned once by an architect that had zero ethics.

For the PDF I always have a statement across the signature line like the one shown below.

Wet signatures will always win out over digital ones because if there is any hint that the digital has been altered then just bringing that matter up will cause folks to wonder..then you just ask that the wet signature original be produced so it can be compared with the document in question. If a wet signature document cannot be produced..case closed.

[mpallamary]

The CCR permits digital signature and seal. In the old days, a person like this would paste them in. In the end, it is wrong to do by anyone other that the licensed surveyor. I had a recent case where a client wanted to change a document I prepared and the city plan reviewer told her - no problem! Just erase his seal. She did with the consent of the city!

California Code of Regulations: 411 (e)

The seal shall be capable of leaving a permanent ink representation, an opaque and permanent impression, or an electronically-generated representation on the documents. The signature may be applied to the documents electronically.

[Ben Lund]

While discussing a couple potential jobs with an architect, he showed me a structural report and I noticed that he had taped a copy of an engineer's stamp and signature.

I thought that was a little strange so I looked up the engineer and he was deceased.

[Stephen Johnson]

While discussing a couple potential jobs with an architect, he showed me a structural report and I noticed that he had taped a copy of an engineer's stamp and signature.

I thought that was a little strange so I looked up the engineer and he was deceased.

Did you inform the board, as is your duty? Also the DA. The architect was in the process of committing the felony called Fraud.

[Ben Lund]

Stephen,
I was not sure he "was in the process of committing" fraud. I did not have nor do I now have all of the necessary facts to ascertain if fraud was being committed. I don’t believe the architect was licensed but I’m not sure about that so I use the term “architect” loosely.

I do not know if the engineer allowed the architect to copy his stamp and signature. I would guess that the agency plan checker’s would look up the license status of the engineer and see he was deceased.

Based on my conversation and observations of the architect I decided not to work with him and have not talked to or seen him since.

Is it my duty to inform the board and DA that this guy might be committing fraud based upon my knowledge that he had a structural report that was signed and stamped by an engineer that is currently deceased?

[Stephen Johnson]

If you are licensed, yes, you are obligated to report such fraudulent activity as using a deceased engineers signature and seal on a document that he didn't produce.

It does not matter if the particular person you were dealing with was actually licensed as an architect or not, using a dead engineers seal is against the law and board rules.

While a DA may not proceed with fraud charges on such a case, it is not a bad thing to alert that office of such things as you observed and let the office decide.

[E_Page]

Not much that we deal with as surveyors have much potential to affect life & death matters, people's physical safety or potential harm to physical property. A structural report does have that potential and is a very serious matter.

Did you confront the architect about the copied/taped signature & seal or did you just keep that thought to yourself? What possible legitimate reason could there be for someone to have someone else's signature and seal photocopied and taped to a document?

You may have only circumstantial evidence, but it's pretty certain that there is no legitimate reason for it.

Yes Ben, you do have a responsibility here. Do some investigation. find out if the "architect" is licensed. Call him and find out what reason he would have to have the engineer's signature and seal copied and taped to a document. If the answer is not satisfactory, notify BPELSG and notify the agency to which the report was submitted.

Don't take for granted that the plan checkers will verify the licensee. Quite often they won't.

[Ben Lund]

"...it's pretty certain there is no legitimate reason for it."

The engineer might have told the architect to use the stamp and signature. This is no different than the situation given in the original post. Yes the engineer is deceased but the report that I saw might have been done before he died.

Even if he didn't, what if the architect said he did? BTW, this happened about 5 years ago and I don't remember any specifics.

[E_Page]

Really Ben??? I hope your kidding because that's incredibly lame.

The engineer cannot sign & stamp posthumously. I can't imagine a reasonable licensee instructing someone to apply their stamp & signature by photocopy anyway.

Whether the engineer is alive or dead, I don't think it would be legal. With the engineer being deceased, there is absolutely no question.

The only question left is whether or not a licensee would be considered to be guilty of aiding & abetting unlicensed practice if one has knowledge of an unlicensed person using a deceased licensee's stamp and fails to do something about it.

[Ben Lund]

Still not convinced I can do anything about this or that I am aiding or abetting but I'm open to the convincing...

[MFORD]

Aiding and abetting?

It seems there are those among us that are very concerned about licensees not reporting other professionals or non-professionals for acting illegally. How about the case where a practicing licensed surveyor has the records of a retired licensed surveyor. The retired surveyor has a well documented history and reputation for not filing his maps as required by §8762.

The practicing surveyor offers for sale copies of the unrecorded survey maps by the retired surveyor. The record holder requires, as a condition of the sale, the recipient of the copies of the unrecorded map(s) to sign a stipulation agreement not to distribute, copy or make public in any media form the unrecorded map(s). Would the stipulation agreement be considered aiding and abetting the retired surveyor? Furthermore, is the record holder guilty for not reporting the known violation by the retired surveyor?

Mike Ford

[E_Page]

Ben,
I laid out a course of action for you in Post #16. You obviously thought something was not right about the situation, otherwise you would not have posted about it at all. The question isn't whether or not your actions will ultimately prove effective to stop the illegal use of a dead licensee's signature and seal. You don't need to be "convinced" as to whether you are able to pick up a phone and ask a few questions, or if the answers to the questions are not satisfactory, whether you are able to pick up a phone and notify some people who should be aware of the matter (agency the structural report was going to, & BPELSG). We both know that you are quite capable of using a phone. It's a matter of whether you are willing to get out of your comfort zone and ask tough questions of that person in the first place.

BTW, re-read my last post. I said that aiding & abetting may be an open and valid question. I didn't go so far as making an accusation.


Mike,
I can argue either side of your issue effectively. In this thread, it's a red herring. Start a new thread if you want to argue the unfiled maps issue.

[Gromatici]

How about using a crimp seal? Wouldn't that keep people from copying your
seal? Sorry for hi-jacking the hi-jack.

[Stephen Johnson]

How about using a crimp seal? Wouldn't that keep people from copying your
seal? Sorry for hi-jacking the hi-jack.

Not really.

Anyone can order a seal with someone else's name and number on it or create an electronic seal of the same or create a totally fraudulent seal.

[sdprofessional]

When I "digitally sign" an acrobat pdf of one of my legal descriptions, it locks the pdf and any changes to the pdf invalidates my digital signature.

I do not allow anyone to affix a scan of my signature to any document and call that a "digital signature".

Without the "locking" provided by Acrobat (and other software) I would not give permission to anyone to use one of my legal descriptions.

If I have have authorized it, I have digitally signed it and it is a locked pdf.

Or wet-signed the document.

(that doesn't mean that the software can't be beat)

Even if this were the case, documents can still be digitally altered, trust me there are ways...

[Anthony Maffia]

Adding this to the thread for reference:
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Black's Law Dictionary, Ninth Ed
"Seal" 3rd def:
A design embossed or stamped on paper to authenticate, confirm, or attest; an impression or sign that has legal consequence when applied to an instrument.

"Signature" 1st def:
A person's name or mark written by that person or at that person's direction.

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Ben, I don't think dead engineers can authenticate, confirm, sign or direct someone to sign. That's fraud and forgery.