What is Land Surveying?

[mpallamary]

Hello fellow Land Surveyors,

I have attached a series of documents hereto. I would like to know if you consider these to be land surveying documents. Please note that most, if not all, show the location of a public right of way and many show dimensions to the ROW to the nearest hundredth of a foot.

Thank you for your time and consideration.

[Gromatici]

They don't have a seal, which most of them are supposed to. As for the environmental documents: It's hard to say. I do a lot of work for geologist and they take my maps and use them as a backdrop and prepare their own documents. Many times they lack a seal too, especially if it's a scientist working on the project and not a geologist.

Some of them looked like "site plans" so it's more of a proposed improvements? Others looked like topos, and needed a seal. It could be that they originally came with a cover sheet and that was not recorded?

[mpallamary]

Thank you.

For purposes of the question, the document you see is in its entirety. There are inevitably 2 parts to this question I suppose. 1) Are these surveying documents? This would be a yes or no answer I believe. If they are then: 2) Don't surveying documents require a stamp/seal and signature and the individual who is in "responsible charge" to identify him/herself. The question was poised in such a way that if the answer was yes to 1, then the documents would have to be stamped and signed.

[Steve Martin]

Mike,

Will answers written here appear as evidence in a lawsuit?

[goodgps]

It depends on what these sketches are attached with, ie; a report? etc.
Some of these look like simple topo's for an architect or structural engineer.

Land Survey documents ? or Engineer's report exhibits ? depends.
Also, I see some "Firm" names on the plats which indicate that these were provided by that firm. What does the listed Firm do ?
Are these firms promoting Land Survey services without benefit of Liscense ?

Utility plans often show Rights-of-way, and dimensions to Property lines, yet they are more considered Engineering/development plans.

If you are head hunting, then it must first be determined who is being damaged by the contents of the plats. For instance a company like [unstamped ALTA's.com] would be violating a whole bunch of laws and damage could be to the local practicing Land Survey companies.

If the sketches are for some landscaping or remodeling, damage could be to the Property owner, should an encroachemnt be determined after final construction.
So to answer your two questions 1. Dunno ? 2. Not sure ?

no help to you at all I suppose ??

"good"

[mpallamary]

Good question My old friend. These are not involved in a lawsuit nor are they involoved in any litigation. As such, none of the responses or opinions will be used in any litigation I am involved in.

[mpallamary]

Let me add some more clarity to the nature of my question. All of these drawings are recorded and are part of what are known as Encroachment Maintenance Removal Agreements. What I was hoping for was a response of "first impression." In other words, irrespective of what these documents are associated with or used for, the fundamental question involves are these the products of land surveying? Every one of them is recorded and the sole purpose of the drawing is to show the relationship between the improvements and the ROW line. I was hoping to avoid the distraction as to how the document was used. It is my hope that it could be evaluated purely on one's visceral impressions.

I have attached an EMRA form but as I said, my goal is to get a response based upon a simple inspction of the document fromm the four corners. Each of these are attached to this form.

Thanks to all for the time and dialogue.

[E_Page]

My answer of first impression didn't change with your post of additional info.

Many of those drawings are on title block of surveying companies, which means that they were issued directly by a surveyor. As such they absolutely require signature and seal. That's quite clear in both the PLSA §8761 and in BR §411(g)(2).

Those documents which appear to have been prepared by someone other than a licensed surveyor probably should have been. If they were prepared by someone authorized to do limited mapping (CE or landscape exception), and were doing that mapping on the backdrop of mapping prepared by an LS, hopefully have a signed and sealed map by the LS in their office. If not, they may be open to a charge of unlicensed surveying.

I am in a position in which I regularly review maps prepared by engineers and other surveyors. I find it amazing how many seem to be unaware of the requirements of the code sections mentioned above.

[mpallamary]

Thank you kind gentlemen for your response. It is greatly appreciated. The more the merrier.

[Ric7308]

A few questions pop in my mind from a "visceral impression":

1. Are existing physical features (or fixed works) referenced to known (or unknown) boundary lines?

2. Are portions of these physical features depicted as possibly "encroaching" across known (or unknown) boundary lines? If so, could these existing field conditions be considered evidence to alternate positions of points or lines?

It appears that some of the documents are lacking the first or title pages. B&P Code, Section 8761(a) allows for a seal and signature on just a title page.

Ric

[mpallamary]

Hello Ric7308,

Thank you for your comments. You have identified part of the problem. None of these documents have a seal or signature. Some of these pages are excerpts from a larger document. I did not include them as they just showed more details. I reviewed each and every page and nothing is stamped or signed. If one is looking for a seal and signature, that would suggest that these are viewed as surveying documents. That brings us back to my original question: "Are these surveying documents"? If they are, they should be sealed and signed. None of these are sealed and what you see is what we have. As to what the documents depict, they speak for themselves. Boundary lines are shown and physical features are shown relative to those lines. The drawings also show encroachments and as such, could indicate the location of alternate lines or points.

[Gromatici]

Not all of them are surveying documents. Many of them are.

[bruce hall]

fifteen documents. I would say about half of them are and the other half aren't. Just cause some drawing shows a right of way or a pl doesn't mean it it's a survey document. That's my first impression.

[mpallamary]

Excellent my old friend! Thanks much.

I appreciate everyone's comments. They are very helpful!

[Peter Ehlert]

I would say many could be, depending on what the rest of the document is...

[mpallamary]

Again, thank you my friend. There is nothing more to the document other than the EMRA form which calls for an exhibit to be attached. That is it and nothing more.

[LA Stevens]

If I prepared the document showing existing features relative to a boundary line, I am obligated to sign and stamp it in accordance with state law.
YES
YES


Tentative Maps, without any field work being accomplished, are required to be signed and stamped.

On the other hand if a proposed encroachment is being shown, maybe the document was created by an architect and he had an existing signed and stamped topography? It would be nice if all submissions such as this would include/require a signed stamped copy of the surveyor who surveyed the existing conditions. Or maybe require a note referencing the original document.

[mpallamary]

Thank you Larry. Your response is greatly appreciated.

[Jim Frame]

"Tentative Maps, without any field work being accomplished, are required to be signed and stamped."

Local agencies may impose conditions that require tentative maps to be prepared by a licensed professional, but near as I can tell there's nothing in the state statutes that do so. §66424.5 of the Government Code states that a tentative map "need not be based upon an accurate or detailed final survey of the property." And since a tentative map doesn't effect a subdivision -- that's the job of the Final or Parcel map that follows the tentative -- §8726(d) of the B&P Code appears not to apply to tentative maps.

To me this means that any subdivider can prepare a tentative map. It's never been clear to me where the authority under which local agenices impose more stringent conditions on tentative maps is found, and I've always been curious if those local agency requirements for preparation by a surveyor or RCE are actually defensible.

.

[mpallamary]

Hi Jim,

I hope the attached helps clarify things. I have had extensive communications over the years with the Board on this.

[mpallamary]

Thanks for sharing your thoughts. They are greatly appreciated and of considerable value.

[Ian Wilson]

OK. I’ll take another tack.

Many of the documents presented would be construed by any reasonable member of the public as being definitive in the location of the fixed objects relative to the rights-of-way and property lines.

The documents “establish” fact in the mind of the non-professional reviewer. They impart absolute knowledge of the question at hand.

They are “survey documents”.

Since none of them bear the seal and signature of a licensed land surveyor, there are two possibilities.

First, the person preparing the documents, being licensed to practice land surveying, failed to sign and stamp the documents. This is in direct violation of the Board Rules §411(g)(2).

Second, the individual preparing the documents is NOT authorized to practice land surveying. In such case, the preparer is likely re-using the work of a licensed surveyor and is likely guilty of practicing land surveying without authorization to do so.

A number of the north arrows are very similar to the one I use. After review of all the documents, none of them appear to be work ever done under my oversight or on projects of mine.

[mpallamary]

Thanks Ian,

As always, your input and analysis is of great value and it carries considerable weight. I think I have gotten enough comments to my baseline question. Now, I want to throw a curve ball at you and the others who have responded. Let us say this is a hypothetical question. What if I were to tell you that the vast majority of these documents were prepared by a land survey or survey/civil engineer firm and the reason they do not include any seals or signatures is because the preparer was ordered to remove their license number by a city engineer?

Do you believe that relieves the preparer of his/her obligation to seal and sign their work product? What of the role of the city engineer in such a hypothetical situation?

[Ian Wilson]

Remove to allow others to answer...

This is getting interesting...

.

[LA Stevens]

I still sign the maps as a work product I created and delivered to the county. I didn't mean to imply the SMA required it.


If a surveyor or a Pre 82 authorized to survey is not required to sign the EMRA, than anyone should be able to submit one?