County Ordinance Governing Monument Placement

[Sunburned_Surveyor]

I just learned our county has an ordinance that indicates what type of monuments a land surveyor can set to mark property corners. Is this fairly common across California?

It seemed funny that the county would dictate to a land surveyor what is an acceptable property monument. That would be like the county telling a doctor what is an appropriate treatment for his/her patient.

Let me know if your county has a similar ordinance.

Thanks,

The Sunburned Surveyor (PLS 8489)

[E_Page]

If local jurisdictions have legal authority to dictate minimum monument standards on anything other than subdivisions, I'm unaware of where that authority is codified.

[bruce hall]

or a city could dictate what type of monuments are to be set when the monuments are part of capital improvement project. Part of the specs in the bid items would be to set a certain diameter and length pipe with the appropriate markings and file a corner record.
I think that in that instance they could dictate what type of monument is to be set. I've seen it done.

[steffan]

Here's one that has a requirement:

http://www.tehamacountypublicworks.ca.g ... TER_03.pdf

I'm not sure if anyone has challenged it yet, it's a fairly recent standard adopted by Tehama Co.

[Sunburned_Surveyor]

I thought my County's ordinance was irritating. The ordinance from Tehama County looks a lot more extensive (and onerous).

I'll have to check with my County to see if the ordinance only applys to parcel maps and subdivision maps, or if it applies to Record of Surveys as well.

How do others feel about these type of local ordinances? Is everyone OK with this?

I guess it rubs me the wrong way when a civil engineer at the public works department is telling me what type of monument I need to set. :]

What about situations when you can set the monument specified because of the topography? (I can't reasonably set a 3/4" X 30" rebar on bedrock, or in a pile of sand.) At what point does a local ordinance remove all room for professional jusgement?

I realize these ordinances are written in response to surveyors who don't set quality monuments, but I hate to see the rest of us punished for their mistakes.

The Sunburned Surveyor (PLS 8489)

[Sunburned_Surveyor]

Mr. Hall:

I want to clarify my response. I have no problem with a local government dictating what monuments I set on one of THEIR projects. I just question the need for them to tell me what monuments I need to set on a project for a private citizen or entity.

The Sunburned Surveyor (PLS 8489)

[E_Page]

If a local jurisdiction has a monumentation standard for work done on their jobs, then they are setting these standards as any client has a right to do.

And, as with any other client, the surveyor has the right to not contract to do the work.

[goodgps]

To the Greg Sebourn #3

They may wish to know;
In a large fire, Aluminium , brass and copper tags will melt also.

For a standard note to read "fd. plastic blob" just seems like over prudence to me. Wood lath will burn in fires too.

"Fd melted yellow plastic blob in iron pipe with black ashen wood in charred soil adjacent to pipe" "affixed titanium cap with space age fire proofing tile coating" Center of pipe is 0.01' east and 0.02' south of true positin according to my 14 decimal gps calculations and least squares adjustment.

I'm sorry but government simply cannot change "acts of God"

Just a story my friends Only a story :~)

[Gromatici]

All I have to say is that it seems a lot of trade surveyors are unwilling to spend more than a couple of dollars on a monument. Not sure why. Maybe they figured out that they don't last long and it's job security? $50,000 for a final map and all you set is 1/2" I.P. with a plastic cap? I guess the $100 dollars they saved on materials was worth the 2 notches they brought the profession down to? I think it just comes down to habit. If all you see is the old timers doing it, then you don't know any better but I'd like to see the practice of setting cheap monuments stop.

As for me, I believe that a Professional Surveyor will set something that will last a long time. Galvanized steel pipes (not the second hand black pipe) and a metallic cap or tag of some sort. I like 1" to 2" pipes better than the 1/2" I see so many installing. If it's a small lot I'll use 1" with aluminum caps or a 2" Brass Cap. Cost me about 7.50 per unit. I charge $25 for each corner and usually have it encase in concrete.

It's about quality. Here in SB you have to install 1.5" for greater diameter pipes with caps at all exterior tract corners. It's a good thing because I can guarantee you that someone would just slam in a 1/2" I.P. with a plastic cap. Why does it matter? The developer is paying to have the exterior boundary lines surveyed at a substantial cost. You might as well make it last so that 40 years from now some land owner doesn't have to pay to have it redone because his 12 year old was able to dig up your flimsy monument.

We're talking about the difference of about $15 bucks. I would hope that we all could afford that. If not, maybe we should reexamine our rates.

The fire thing is an issue too, especially if you have surveyors setting rebar, which is a bane on surveying outside frost areas. Rebar is for landscapers, not Land Surveyors.

Don't get me wrong, there are times to set a 1/2" IP, but it isn't very often.

[subman]

The following is what we require in Los Angeles County for tracts and parcel maps (does not apply to Records of Surveys):

21.20.020 Boundary monuments--Location and materials.
Each final map or parcel map shall show durable monuments found or set at or near each boundary corner and at intermediate points, approximately 1,000 feet apart, or at such lesser distances as may be made necessary by topography or culture to insure accuracy in the reestablishment of any point or line without unreasonable difficulty. The precise position and the character of each such monument shall be shown on such map. Such durable monument shall be not less substantial than an iron pipe of a two-inch outside diameter, not less than two and one-half feet in length, with plug and tack, and set at least two feet into the ground, or of such other character and stability as may be approved by the county engineer. For the purpose of this Title 21, a lead and tack set in permanent concrete or masonry shall be considered as a durable monument. The approximate elevation of the top of each such monument with respect to the surface of the ground shall be shown on said map. (Ord. 9071 § 11 (part), 1966: Ord. 4478 Art. 7 § 112, 1945.)

21.20.030 Street centerline monuments.
A. Whenever necessary in the opinion of the county surveyor, centerline monuments shall be set to mark the intersections of streets, intersections of streets with the tract boundary, or to mark either the beginning and end of curves or the points of intersection of tangents thereof, or other intermediate points.
B. Each such monument shall be not less durable and substantial than:
1. In asphaltic concrete or cement concrete pavements, a lead and tack;
2. In unsurfaced graveled or oiled surfaces, a two-inch iron pipe set not less than 12 inches below the surface, or at such depth as may be approved by the county surveyor;
3. In bituminous macadam pavements, a spike not less than six inches long. (Ord. 5584 § 4 (part) 1952: Ord. 4478 Art. 7 § 113, 1945.)

21.20.040 Centerline intersection monuments--Notes to county surveyor.
A. For each centerline intersection monument set, the engineer or surveyor under whose supervision the survey has been made shall furnish to the county surveyor a set of notes showing clearly the ties between such monument and a sufficient number (normally four) of durable distinctive reference points or monuments.
B. Such reference points or monuments may be leads and tacks in sidewalks, or two-inch by two-inch stakes set back of the curbline and below the surface of the ground, or such substitute therefor as appears to be not more likely to be disturbed.
C. Such set of notes shall be of such quality, form and completeness, and shall be on paper of such quality and size, as may be necessary to conform to the standardized office records of the county surveyor. All such notes shall be indexed and filed by the county surveyor as a part of the permanent public records of this office. (Ord. 4478 Art. 7 § 114, 1945.)

21.20.050 Identification marks on monuments.
All monuments found or set as required herein shall be permanently and visibly marked or tagged with the registration or license number of the engineer or surveyor under whose supervision the survey was made. (Ord. 11665 § 30, 1978: Ord. 4478 Art. 7 § 115, 1945.)

21.20.060 Boundary monuments--Time for setting--Deferment conditions.
All boundary monuments shall be set prior to filing of the final map or parcel map unless extensive grading operations or improvement work makes it impractical to set monuments. In the event any of the boundary monuments required are to be set subsequent to filing of the parcel map or final map, the engineer or surveyor making the survey shall furnish evidence acceptable to the county engineer prior to submitting the map to substantiate his reasons for deferring the setting of permanent monuments until after filing of the map. If the setting of boundary monuments is deferred, field notes showing the boundary survey shall be presented to the county engineer at the time the map is submitted for checking. Interior street-centerline monuments may be set subsequent to filing of the map. The map shall show which monuments are in place and are to be set. Prior to approval of the final map by the board of supervisors or of a parcel map by the advisory agency, the subdivider shall submit a written agreement in which he agrees that the monuments so deferred will be set within a specified time, and that the notes required in Section 21.20.050 will be furnished within a specified time. (Ord. 11665 § 31, 1978: Ord. 8822 § 4, 1965: Ord. 8792 § 4, 1965: Ord. 5883 § 4 (part), 1952: Ord. 4478 Art. 7 § 116, 1945.)

21.20.070 Inspection and approval of monuments.
All monuments shall be subject to inspection and approval of the county surveyor in conjunction with his checking of the map. (Ord. 4478 Art. 7 § 117, 1945.)

[btaylor]

I agree with Ken that pipes can be easy to pull out by simply whacking the sides a few times and pulling, but pipes do seem to seat themselves in the soil better than a solid rod like a rebar.

Reading this and pondering over my issues with the aluminum caps I have tried unsuccessfully to use on my 3/4" iron pipes, I have gone from hating the use of rebar to begrudgingly accepting they may be best for long term life. The Bernsten aluminum caps over rebar may be the best option. I dislike plastic plugs and much prefer metal caps.

[Gromatici]

Are rebar galvanized? If not they will simply rust away. I've found 100 years old galvanized pipe but most of the 30 years old rebar have the caps missing or wobbly and already showing sign of rusting. All my crews wouldn't stop complaining about how they would come back after five years and find the rebar loose, and could easily get pull up by hand (without using a sledge hammer).

One time I found a rebar close to the record position but was tied to a tree (for support). Did the landscaper put it there or the surveyor?

All my monuments have concrete around them, so I think it will take a little more effort to remove them. The aluminum caps are a great idea, but if you can spend $5 on a brass cap then that's the best if you pour concrete into it.

[btaylor]

The other idea I was pondering was using that "Rockite" I saw on the Surv-Kap site, filling the pipe and inserting something in the pipe. It looks like Rockite is used for adhering metal and concrete so it seems like that application would work pretty well.

edit - regarding the galvanization of the rebar, I am inquiring at a place that hot dips the stuff, but I have no idea of the costs, so I am still investigating the idea.

[PE_PLS]

You can buy the epoxy coated rebar that they use in underwater and chemical environments...its the stuff thats sea foam green in color, that would probably last a long time....

[E_Page]

I find that rebar is generally easier to pull. I use 1" or larger galvanized pipe and have experimented with rockite and various epoxies to attach the brass caps.

[btaylor]

Does Rockite work for you?

[goodgps]

Many areas around the State allow fir different material to be used to mark property location. Soils type plays a big part of the decision for material.

Some locations need the solid sturdiness of rebar or pins while other areas like iron pipe. Some soil types will actually "heave" monuments up and out of the ground. Iron pipes tend to "heave" up better than pins in that case.

One old timer . . .(long diseased) told me "it matters less the monument as does the position on th monument"

Of course he understood that we have some concept of "durability"

As Far as subdivision lot corners . . . Well, How many times a week, month, or year have any of us dug up our OWN lot corners ? do we know if they are even there? do we care ? A lot corner in some ways is really a construction corner, when it comes to tract-subdivisions. We mow and occupy between the fences.

If I knew there were gold plated monuments at My lot corners, Those baby's would suddenly be "obliterated" and I'd reset with common pipe and file a corner record. We're talkin a nice lunch with Evan and Ian. . .

In short, there cant really be one standard for all parts of California as far as monument material.

The Statement reads . . . "the monuments are sufficient for the survey to be retraced" . . .

good

[E_Page]

Rockite for BTaylor. It can be mixed poorly and not cure well, resulting in a slurry that turns into a crumbly stuff that doesn't hold well, but you almost have to try to screw it up (or be an 18 y.o. chainman with brain turned to power save mode). I found this out when a client built a fence after our survey and then wanted us to update to show the new fence (about a year and a half after 1st survey). One of the caps was already loose on the pipe, and I remember the thin slurry that was used on that pipe. The others were still in good condition.

Follow the directions on the box and it seems to work well. It also is useful for fortifying otherwise loose rock mounds should you build one around a pipe.

I still haven't decided whether the rockite or a good epoxy is better to adhere caps in the long run, but the rockite is cheaper and the epoxy dries out in the truck if not used up in short order.

[Jim Frame]

To reiterate what Good stated above, the most appropriate monument material will vary with soil conditions. I still use 5/8" rebar for parcel corners on occasion, but have mostly switched to 3/4" form stakes due to local availability. Neither seems to rust appreciably hereabouts.

I use plastic caps on both most of the time. Unless exposed to fire or continuous direct sunlight, polyethylene caps will last for decades. I'm still finding 1960s-era rebars with plastic caps in good legible condition.

Another variable is intended use. I have some Berntsen aluminum caps with poly inserts, but I don't use them very often. It seems that most of the corner monuments I set serve primarily as targets for posthole augers, so the expense of the aluminum caps often seems unjustified.

I sometimes set 3/4" x 20' sectional aluminum rods with aluminum access covers in concrete for geodetic control. They're frightfully expensive to install, but sometimes that expense is worth it (or contractually required).

It's all about finding the sweet spot between durability and expense. YMMV.

.

[PLS7393]

The big issue here is "Durability". Any monument set shall be a durable monument to satify the condition you are in.

I don't think it is out of the question to have a city indicate what they feel satisfies a durable monument, if they have qualified surveyors employed. For a county to dictate similar durable monuments, why not, if they too have a knowledgable surveyor on staff? Every jurisdiction already has a Standard Street Monument that shall be set. For other durable monuments they must have multiple options though, so surveyors can set an appropriate durable monument that lasts.

If a county is known to have large brush fires, why is everyone barking about not being able to set plastic? Plastic is cheap, and not durable in these conditions, so I think the county is only doing our profession a benefit by outlawing plastic caps on rebar in fire prone areas. Other metalic caps are more durable and in most brush fires will not melt because the fire doesn't last long enough to gain the needed heat at your point to make the metal melt.

One more negative issue with plastic plugs. If you set a tack or nail in a plastic plug, I have seen the tack or nail set over the LS number, so you can not read the number correctly. At times I was going to set a tack, but the location was going to interfer with my LS number, so no tack was set. Instead I hit the pipe over to better fit the center of pipe.

In residential areas, I will set 1" outside diameter iron pipes, or rebar with plastic plug/cap, but in the hills or areas prone to potential fire I set rebar with 1 1/2" aluminum caps. Yes aluminum caps seem to wobble on rebar, so I began using the 5 Minute Epoxy to adhere the cap to rebar which works well. Buy the individual packs at Orchard Supply, with the two parts in toothpaste type tubes. They won't dry up, or leak like the syringe two part types.

I do like the part of setting concrete around your points to preserve them, and when you see concrete around a point at the surface, you know a landscaper didn't set that. Remember to note "Set . . . in 4"x4" / 6" diameter concrete".

As mentioned briefly, but not as I am about to say, . . . why don't surveyor's take some pride in their work and set monuments that should last longer then your lifetime?

[E_Page]

Sorry Keith, a local govt cannot dictate monument types except for a subdivision, or on a project for which they are the client.

They can issue guidelines, and the CS may have a legitimate point of disagreement as to whether monuments set as indicated on an RS constitute durable monuments. But they have no authority to dictate that others adhere to their guidelines.

I could agree with one of your statements if it were worded thusly: "I think the county is doing our profession a benefit by providing well thought out guidelines as to the type(s) of monuments that tend to be durable in their area."

Don't think that because I correctly point out that the local govts do not have the authority to dictate monument types (except under the circumstances previously stipulated), that I against setting monuments of quality materials, or for setting cheap monuments.

There are times and places where a Mag Nail and tag are sufficient, and ther are times where nothing less than a 3" galvanized pipe encased in concrete will do. The licensed professional and his or her client should be the ones who decide what is appropriate. In fact, it is the PLS who has the authority under the law to decide that as they have the ability to direct the CS to "file without further change."

[PLS7393]

I think I miss-worded my statement. You are correct Evan that I agree that the governing agencies can only dictate approved monuments for subdivisions. That is what the detail implies that the city uses.

Sorry for my short post, which was not correctly correct, I think, well maybe. I might change my mind tomorrow, so check back.

[btaylor]

I got in contact with MMFX rebar and their prices are good considering the product. Anyone interested can email me and I will send them the prices they quoted me for 100 count of #4, #5, and #6 x 30" rebar.

Supposedly the rebar is many times stronger and more corrosion resistant than standard rebar.

edit - going on a short vacation soon so there may be a delay in responding depending on when you email me.

[Peter Ehlert]

Thanks Bryan. I looked them up: http://www.mmfx.com/prod_steel.shtml

Stainless is non magnetic (we use a magnet to verify material on boat work) and maybe the "low-carbon, chromium-bearing steels" they use will not bug up well with the pin finder... so we may not see many more notes on maps like "found a beep, tide it in" ;-} Seriously, the Az MTS say "The monument shall be magnetically detectable"...
Not that it matters to me that much, my "pin finder" looks a lot like a shovel. :-)

[btaylor]

I was told it is not the same as stainless and has similar magnetic properties as standard rebar. I asked them that initially.

Yes we learned when we got our pretty stainless steel refrigerator that stainless steel can be non-magnetic, which was a sore point for us the first time we tried to stick a photo of the kids on it.