Corner record ad nauseum

[Gary O]

Lot and block situation, map shows all corners monumented. Client calls the surveyor asks him to remonument her corners.

Surveyor finds two centerline monuments, ties to one of the lot corner positions and then geometrically re-establishes and remonuments all of the lot corners. He makes no reference to any other found monumentation even though all corner were monumented at the time of the map. He feels that the two centerline monuments are sufficient.

He says 'that's what CR's are for...simple work that doesn't require an R/S"
He said that if someone does a 'real' survey next door and there's a problem they'll deal with it then.

I'm talking to a veteran surveyor and I really don't want to get heavy handed but I feel he's leaving me no choice.

What are your opinions on 'sufficient monumentation'

[Gary O]

I told him that I wasn't saying he was wrong, just that he hadn't shown me enough to prove he was right.

Thanks

[E_Page]

In setting the monument and filing the CR, he is in essence saying that he, as a professional surveyor has done sufficient work to verify that the monument placement is correct and that he did not encounter the need for a RS per 8762(b) during his survey.

If he were simply tying out a monument that he had previously tied, and had known, by his own measurements, the relationship to the centerline monuments prior to that monument's destruction, then the purpose of the CR would be to replace the monument back where he originally found it.

But if I read the scenario correctly, he was hired to do a retracement and reset a corner monument that was removed prior to his having tied it out. His client hired him to "reset my property corner".

Perhaps if he does not see the need for him to do a "real survey", leaving that for when (if) another surveyor works on an adjacent property, he has no need for a license to do "real" surveys.

That might be a bit harsh, but a veteran surveyor should know better and serve their clients in a more professional manner. He thinks he just stuck a chunk of metal in the ground that may or may not be in the right location per a "real" survey. His client thinks that a diligent surveyor replaced her property corner and will rely on it accordingly.

Who's going to explain to her that she didn't get what she thought she paid for?

He should be showing record and Measured, at a minimum, to the adjacent corner monuments.

[Ric7308]

So is this Land Surveyor's work an "unreal survey"?

Chances are, each member of the public expects a "real survey", that it is perfect and that any other Land Surveyor would arrive at the same result. Could be misleading to the consumers.

Ric

[Dave Lindell]

A block closure can, and should be, shown on a CR. It may get crowded, but it shows what was done (or not done).

If he didn't do one (you said "a lot and block situation") then he should be referred to the Board for further education on real surveys.

[goodgps]

Un fortunately, fellas, a corner record demonstrates even less constructive notice than a record of survey. Now don't even get me wrong, When I set My tag the dang corner better be dogone right or as close as I can be from evidence.

These situations are exactly why I wrote an article "record of survey, surveyor's opinion, or based upon fact." This went unpublished (sorry)

In the olden days, the situation you first describe here, was not only practiced regularly, but respected by other colleagues. Keep in mind "gentle folk" (As Ian would put it) much of the control we use today was established exactly the same way this surveyor has done.

This now brings up the question, ? with all of the modern technology, ie; GPS etc, where does the limits of our method responsibilities fall ?

Think about this . . . When you use control you find which was set prior to 1976, it was most likely set by the good surveyor using the easiest method he could. He trusted that his fellow surveyors had measured correctly and therefor he would match them. This was not considered laziness, but rather mutual respect.

Thanks for you time,

Lott A Tension

[Peter Ehlert]

an opinion on 'sufficient monumentation'? well, heck Gary! It Depends!

we don't know much of the story here... I assume that the surveyor set some markers and then prepared a CR and submitted it to you to be filed; have you refused to file it? Is it within your power to refuse a CR?

CL mons may be the best available evidence, then there may be a lot more evidence out there... It Depends... fill us in a little bit here

[Peter Ehlert]

Greg: I sure wish things were that black and white in my world! ;-]

[PLS7393]

I agree with you Peter, as Greg mentioned.

Survey around the block? Won't that take extra time, and cost me more in time?

How many surveys come in these days and the surveyor sets corners at record distance along the sidelines?
They might of even prorated along the frontage because the dimensions they measured were not the same as record.

Well, they got part of their survey correct.

[bruce hall]

The surveyor layed out the lots and threw the slopp in the last two. Every lot got 60 feet cept the last two, and they were 59.8 each.

[dmi]

Gary,

I believe you can add a note to the corner record, if all else fails. For a brief period of having to check others work, I have an appreciation for both sides of the counter, but it is probably best to try and understand the comments privided by the public agency and comply.

thats just me

[goodgps]

Its not best to do a complete "round the block" survey without searching for internal monumentation. The internal monuments are the strongest evidence of retracement. A round the block survey can be performed as a tool to help DIG for record monuments, but it should'nt be used as a method of "flop and drop"

Also, leaving error in last 2 lots doesn't seem correct At least the guy could've prorated the frontages. (Unless he found original corners)

This whole thing sounds sloppy now !!

[Ian Wilson]

Hee hee, Good...right on the money.

Howsomeever, knowing Mr. Hall, I suspect that his tongue was FIRMLY clenched between his teeth when he was writing his post.

Having said that, I have seen a number of blocks that actually WERE set up with all the lots at 60' and the last two at whatever was left.

Ya gotta look at ALL the evidence you can find before making your decisions.

[goodgps]

Mr Brown is quoted as stating "every measurement on a map of record has equal value and should therefor be considered in every retracement"

My quote may be off a bit but the message is clear from Him.

[Gary O]

Wow! A lot of great thought going into this problem....

Peter - you know what I know. To my knowledge he didn't look for any other adjoining interior lot corner monuments....he just took the centerline mons and ran with them. If he looked for the others and they weren't there it would be a different kettle o' fish.

Greg, Dave, Goodgps, et al, - as far as a 'round the block' survey, I think you said the key word, 'survey'. In my opinion, unless he can find monuments which clearly fit each other and allow exact replacement, it should be a R/S.

DMI - I suppose a note is my only recourse if he doesn't do more work.

I suspect he told the client it could be done with a CR (cheap) and is embarrassed to go back and tell them they need a R/S (expensive)

[bruce hall]

Anyway, measurements on a map are important but so is the original monument set in it's original position. If I am lucky I have a map and some pipes that fit well within themselves and all the fences are aligned according to the stars, the cows and these monuments.

[Dave Lindell]

"...aligned to the stars, the COWS...", now that's funny!

(You must have read the same article I did.)

[goodgps]

Gosh,
If I had a hunert dollars for everytime I tried to sell a client on the cheap, then filed a ROS on my own dime, I could buy real beer instead of Keystone.

As Licensed Land Surveyors or PLS'S we have a responsibility to perform our duties with diligence. We must not be driven by time or money. We cannot add our bias opinion or ad. . .nauseum. My feeble guess is the same as y'all. Master surveyor guy did a survey on the cheap.

Can you place a note on a corner record plat ??? It seem fair that a little advanced notice for the next newbie might be in order.

Do these corners even fit capital improvements like houses ? if he is off a foot and the house no longer has the proper setback, (from his survey) this could cause an owner some grief during an addition improvement inspection.

I've seen this a few times. Especially it happens to the elderly and BOOM their addition project is scrapped and siome damn fool inspector wants their house "trimmed"

I take it all back. . . . Go reason with this guy and/ or put a but note on the CR.

maybe this "lotta discussion" is very worth while afterall.


"Sandus" To DeBeginning

[LA Stevens]

I would hope everyone has a provision in the contract that they use, which would allow a ROS to be filed and the cost to be paid by the client.

I have explained to clients the need to check street monuments on their street as well as the street that the adjoiners live on to assure every thing is in agreement. And let them know additional surveying may need to be conducted and a ROS filed if things don't fit in accordance with the record.

Some clients go cheap, but many of them appreciate being educated and want a proper job. That's the client I enjoy working for.

[goodgps]

Actually,

I set my pricing for a "corner record" survey and plat, very near that of the ROS. The worst part is the elevated County surveyors review fee.
recently from $100 up to $600.

This is why so many clients want to go cheap.
Also in a couple of nearby counties, the County surveyor insists that the survey be done as if he were hired to do it. So the "red-lines" get stupid.

One guy puts redlines in my logo because he doesn't care for it.
Another red lines our abbreviations, even though we have had the same logo and legend for the past 16 years. (typical calls I might add)

Our Local "guys" are excellent and I appreciate their work.

Tough to do business today.

[E_Page]

Review fee for a CR? I thought that the CS was simply supposed to file it and therefore was not allowed to charge a review fee.

We pay $10 to file a CR with the County Surveyor. The folks, guys and gals, in our local CS office are also excellent.

[goodgps]

Oh, no no That is the review fee for ROS which is why clients balk at filing.

Sorry about that.