What is Land Surveying?

[Dave Lindell]

Is it possible to tell the City Engineer to remove him/herself?

[bruce hall]

make any sense to me. The city engineer wanting the seal removed and then the engineer/surveyor removing it. I don't know where this is going but like I said, this really doesn't make sense to me.

And another thing. Look at emra sketch 20 on the stuff mike sent. Mr. Jones most definitely needed a surveyor for that sketch. I mean it shows the PL and a right of way. I also looks like it could be worth a couple of hundred bucks to some surveyor or engineer.

All Mr. Jones wants to do is get this maintenance agreement, easement deal with the city taken care of cause he has got a problem with them or the other way around. So Mr. Jones asks the city "where is the right of way from the curb", and they tell him. He goes out there and pulls out his tape measure and locates the trees and the sidewalk and this little walkway that gets him to the street from his house.(And this little walkway has been there a long time, I betcha). And he draws a little sketch.

He puts some fancy verbage on the sketch like "Lot 29 and 30 Block 50, Map No. 279", copies a little vicinity map from the Thomas Bros. He then draws a couple of lines that say PL on them(and he knows where the property line is cause it is right there along those fences that have been there foooorrrrrr evvveeeeerrrr) and away he goes back to the city, and it's a done deal.

Maybe he is required to have a Land Surveyor prepare that sketch and I wished he woulda called me. I coulda made a few hundred bucks on the deal.

[mpallamary]

Thanks Bruce, As always, your input is valued and appreciated. You make some very good points. I hope all is well with you.

[bruce hall]

I have some work and the bills are paid kinda sorta. But before anyone jumps all over me regarding my just posted comments, I want to add the following.

A whole bunch of these sketches appear to have been prepared by engineers or surveyors or someone like that. They should have been signed and sealed by the guy/girl who prepared them and the city engineer overstepped whatever bounds he has in telling the preparer to remove his/her seal.

The preparer should have told the city engineer that any plat blah, blah, blah that is prepared by a licensed surveyor/engineer shall have his/her seal on that document. And I supposed the preparer could have explained this in a professional or unprofessional manner. I would depend on the "heat of the situation".

I don't know what would come from such refusal to remove the seal, but it isn't right.

[E_Page]

First, a quick comment about stamping TMs. The SMA does not require that a CE or PLS prepare a TM, but, just because the SMA does not address signing/sealing a TM, the professional is not relieved of his or her responsibility to do so under §8761(c) or §411(g)(2).


Now, on to the newly introduced development. I'll begin answering that with another hypothetical: If you set corner monuments and were required to file an RS, had prepared an RS for submittal, but the City Engineer (or whatever client it was for) directed you to not file, would you comply with the client's wishes or comply with the law?

It is irrelevant that the City Engineer required one to remove their stamp and signature. The City Engineer's does not have the authority to set aside or order another to act contrary to state law! IMO, it would be quite appropriate for that City Engineer to be educated in this regard by the local PPC, and if necessary, by BPELS. The CE is mandating an illegal act. I'm sure that must be against several laws.

[pls7809]

I agree with Evan. It's not up to the "City Engineer" to decide whether or not a work product get's stamped. The PLS act defines what gets stamped.

[Ben Lund]

It seems everyone (including me) is in general agreement on this one. I also don’t believe the City Engineer can say the standard of practice is to NOT sign and seal such documents.

Post #18 by Larry says, ”On the other hand if a proposed encroachment is being shown, maybe the document was created by an architect and he had an existing signed and stamped topography?”

411(g)(2): “All maps, plats, reports, descriptions, or other professional land surveying documents … shall be signed and sealed in a manner such that all work can be CLEARLY ATTRIBUTED to the licensee(s) in responsible charge of the work.”

Can an architect (or any individual) prepare an encroachment exhibit (that depicts the relationship between established boundaries and fixed works) if he’s working off of a “signed and stamped topo”?

[LA Stevens]

EMRA 4002 looked like a planned encroachment by an architect since it was in inches and called for "new sidewalk and driveway".

#8926 called for a "proposed monitoring well"? How does Environmental Management know where the cl and r/w of the alley is?

Who's allowed to submit an EMRA?

[subman]

Dave,

Maybe they used that new nifty iPhone compass app?

[mpallamary]

Again, thank you all for your comments and opinions. I am heartened by the quality of the responses and the uniform theme that serves as an undercurrent to your responses. Each of you have made an invaluable contribution to the land surveying profession. Many thanks.

[Ben Lund]

A hypothetical logic train:
1. The Land Surveyor surveys, locates, and monuments the right of way and files a Record of Survey.
2. A Civil Engineer uses this signed and sealed document to find and locate (survey) the set monuments (fixed works)
3. The Civil Engineer locates other fixed works relating to the set monuments for topographic reasons.
4. The Civil Engineer then creates a topographic exhibit showing the established right of way (per the Record of Survey and says such on the exhibit) and its relationship to surveyed fixed works.

Per previous threads, my guess is most surveyors would say the Civil is practicing land surveying in this example.

Dave said, “Are the lines considered ‘established’? I do not think we can have it both ways…”

[E_Page]

Question, Ben: Is the CE interpreting the RS map to identify the corner monuments, or has the surveyor positively identified them in the field for the CE? The answer to that will determine if the CE is practicing outside of his or her authority.

[Ric7308]

Okay, I'm willing to climb aboard this hypothetical logic train...

2. Purely within the context of Ben's presentation of this statement, the CE hasn't purported said "fixed works" as representing the location of the right-of-way...yet.

3. CE can perform topographic survey and see 2. above.

4. The CE is now issuing an opinion on where that right-of-way is positioned in the field relative to the existing "fixed works". Where does it state, in any law, that a CE is authorized to prepare such an exhibit that represents any relationship between existing "fixed works" and a right-of-way, boundary, property line?

Discussion...first, let's talk about referring to the monuments as "fixed works". I have heard this point argued before, so Ben is not alone in this way of thinking. To follow that track of logic, one must also group a monument in the same context of any other physical feature located within the survey and with equal weight. Therefore, wouldn't a survey such as this also "establish" other points of reference that can be considered monuments during any future right-of-way retracement? Hasn't the "fixed work", in this case a monument, now simply be viewed in the same manner as a fence or a building corner, or a wall, etc.? When does a fence, a wall, a building corner, etc. become something other than a "fixed work"? My response is that when it is, or can be, used as a reference to retrace any property boundary...those fixed works have now risen to the level of being a monument.

Second, let's say the CE has now deboarded (is that a word) this train and all the passengers remaining are comprised of architects, geologists, a few contractors, members of the general public...oh yeah, and let's not forget that sneaky landscape architect in the sleeping car.

Where does it state, in any law, that any one of those passengers is authorized to prepare such an exhibit that represents any relationship between existing "fixed works" and a right-of-way, boundary, property line?

I ask this, because CE's are not the subject of Michael's inquiry. Reporting and recording of a document that purports to represent physical encumbrances relative to real property boundaries that may/could/does affect land title interests is. Hmmm...sounds kind of like a four letter word that land surveyors commonly refer to in their normal everday work environment, doesn't it?

How would any land surveyor feel if a title company decided that the seal and signature wasn't needed on that ALTA survey and removed it before presenting it to the interested parties? More importantly, how would that interested party feel?

[Ian Wilson]

Oh dear!

Here we go again.

A monument is NOT a corner. A corner is the intersection of two lines, one or more of which may be curved. A monument is ANYTHING natural or artificial used to mark that corner. They are NOT the same.

The implication in any situation is that the monument marks the corner. Right-of-way monuments mark right-of way lines.

What happens if the monument is set at an offset not correctly reported on the map? What happens if the monument is set incorrectly? What happens if there is an alternate position for the corner not reported by the survey? What happens if there is compelling evidence not found during the survey but disclosed later?

Every time I see a story about a non-surveyor pointing to a monument and making a definitive statement, I am reminded about the real estate agent who pointed to a BC monument on the curb at the front and a monument for the subdivision behind at the rear of the property. The new buyer took the agent’s word and built a beautiful 3’ high brick wall topped by a 3’ high louvered wood fence…6‘ on my clients property because the wrong monuments were used.


Non-survey professionals do not have the authority to determine boundaries just because monuments are in the ground. Even if it’s obvious, that’s an opinion that only someone authorized to practice land surveying may state.

As far as any agency removing my signature and seal from any work product sent out of my office, no problem here! I have a copy in the files showing that I complied with the statutes. The fact that the agent removed my seal and signature is evidence that the document has been substantially altered and is no longer my work product. For them to transfer that document to another is a violation of the PLS Act as well as the Board Rules requiring signatures and seals on survey documents, but I’m not the violator!


And, Ric, I’ve heard “deboard” used by airline cabin attendants. I’ve also heard “debark” as in the opposite of embark.


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[Ben Lund]

Ric,
You said, “The CE is now issuing an opinion on where that right-of-way is positioned in the field relative to the existing ‘fixed works’.”

That is the heart of my hypothetical and Michael’s question. Are the EMRA exhibits (that are recorded title encumbrances/agreements) issuing opinions on where the boundary is (at that particular snap shot in time)?

The improvements plans show right-of-way and its relationship to existing and proposed fixed works. Are the improvement plans purporting boundary information? Why don’t surveyors sign these construction documents? Is it enough to have a signed boundary/topo (as Larry states) on file in the office?

This same logic can be applied to the EMRA exhibits. I have to say that I agree with Evan and Ian’s logic on this one.

On the other hand, tentative maps seem to be an exception (because of their tentative nature and the fact they are NOT asserting boundary location). Can this logic be applied to EMRA exhibits? What about site plans that planning departments want when you add to your septic field, or build an addition, or permit a shed?

In a perfect (surveyors) world, everything and anything that shows a boundary should be done by a licensed surveyor. Again, I agree with Evan and Ian, that this should be the case.

I say we force the state to have the assessor’s parcel maps signed and stamped by and LS! (Sarcastically speaking) Certainly these are being relied upon by the public to locate property lines.

[Ian Wilson]

Hold on, Ben! All I’m saying in my post is that MY liability goes up in smoke when someone else removes my signature and seal from my documents and reissues them. THEIR liability comes crashing down! THEY abrogate the statutes. THEY incur the wrath of the “powers that be”.


You wrote: “Are the EMRA exhibits (that are recorded title encumbrances/agreements) issuing opinions on where the boundary is (at that particular snap shot in time)?”

My answer: Absolutely! Every time we show a boundary relative to ANYTHING, we are issuing an opinion as to the location of that boundary. That’s why post ’82 CEs can perform all the topographic surveying they want, but the minute they show a boundary line, they’re in violation of the PLS Act and the PE Act.


A CE I used to do work for loved to go out and shoot his own topo. He would set two or more control points and collect his topo data. Then, he would hire me to go out to do a boundary survey and relate his control to the topo. He’d send me the topo to drop the boundary on. I’d issue a hardcopy with my seal and signature and a statement about my work product being the boundary and control points. He’d use that, as well as the electronic versions in his document package. He “got it”.


You wrote: “I say we force the state to have the assessor’s parcel maps signed and stamped by and LS!”

Not at all! In fact, many counties’ AP Maps bear a statement about the map being NOT a survey map. (The idea of using a map to identify parcels of land for taxation purposes goes back thousands of years to when many could not read. The map was used to identify their parcel.)


You wrote: “Certainly these are being relied upon by the public to locate property lines.”

Alas, you’re quite right. And to the public’s detriment. Of course, they’re relying on those nifty County GIS sites and those $99 GPS units to survey their own boundaries, too!


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[Ben Lund]

Ian, well said and I agree 100%.

You wrote, “Every time we show a boundary relative to ANYTHING, we are issuing an opinion as to the location of that boundary.”

Is this the criteria in characterizing what constitutes land surveying? I believe this is the same question Michael is asking.

You wrote, “In fact, many counties’ AP Maps bear a statement about the map being NOT a survey map.”

Would anyone’s answer change if this type of note was added to these Encroachment Agreement Exhibits/Plats?

[Ian Wilson]

No. My answer would not change.

The purpose of the AP Map is to graphically depict a taxable parcel. The true definition of the extent of the parcel being taxed lies elsewhere.

The purpose of the Encroachment Exhibit is to document the extent of the encroachment. That is a specific boundary function, not a mere "cartoon".

[mpallamary]

Hi,

Thank you all for your participation in this forum subject. As an aside and as food for thought, as you guys may know, I am close to publishing the lectures and papers of Curt Brown. After reading the most recent responses, I excerpted two articles from my soon to be published book. I thought you might find them of interest.

[dmi]

I doubt that you describe a hypothetical situation. No city engineer could require a licensee to violate board rules. So you would be responsible for not signing and sealing your documents, unless they are preliminary in nature and so state on the face of the document. Perhaps the city engineer considered the documents preliminary in nature because the encroachments would be required to be removed sometime in the near future. So perhaps there is a gray area and if I were compeled to comply, then I would seek advise and consent from the board.

[mpallamary]

Thanks Dane,

Your comments are valued and greatly appreciated. In the interest of maintaining a hypothetical situation, what would your opinion be if the city engineer disagreed with you and he/she opined that such work was not land surveying and furthermore, he/she informed you as the licensed land surveyor that he did not care about board rules or laws and that his opinion was all that mattered; hypothetically speaking of course.

[dmi]

Thanks for the wonderful questions. My answer remains the same.The City's opinion of what MY PROFESSIONAL responsiblities is not material with regard to the requirements for my to comply with STATE law. I would submit both a signed and dated and stamped version and an unsigned and un stamped of version with a letter cc'd to the Board stating that in my professional opinon I am required to stamp and sign all documents that represent the delivery of professional services. The unstamped unsigned documents are prelimiunary and are submitted as a courtesy. Only the stamped signed documents are to be used as deliverables of professional services.

[mpallamary]

Excellent responses to my hypothetical scenario. Your comments are greatly appreciated more than you can imagine. I have more hypotheticals to add but at this point, I shall adopt a state of repose. I would love to have more feedback to this post.

[E_Page]

I agree with Dane, except that the word "preliminary" would appear on each sheet of the unsigned/unstamped set.

I find the engineer's arrogance disturbing, but not surprising.

[dmi]

You are most correct in that it ought to be stamped "Preliminary" to satisfy the rule. I was trying to find a way to have it both ways, where I did what I am required to do and the engineer got a document that was useful to his purpose. Can a case be made that if the engineer is qualified to do land surveying, that the encroachment surveys are being done under his responsible charge and therefore it is the responsiblity of the engineer to stamp and sign the documents, or that the engineer has stamped and signed a cover sheet that is an umbrella for all the surveys?