Discussion with a police officer

sako · Post by **sako** » Wed Jul 23, 2008 9:47 am

We recorded a PM for a Lot with 4 new houses. Finally we were ready to set prop. Corners. The right side fence is on the property line at the beginning and is 3 Ft. in our client's property. The neighbor to the right didn't agree with our survey. They had their property surveyed. They asked about my contact info. I gave them my card and asked if it's possible to obtain a copy of the other surveyor's work. They said they will email it to me (I havenâ€™t got anything yet). I called my client and asked him to clarify before he calls me next time. He called me last week saying he has an agreement with the neighbors to enter their property in order to set the points. Yesterday I was on the job side, knocked the neighbor's door twice, no answer. I decided to remove two boards from the fence to set one pipe. The neighbor's wife appeared from the other side of the fence asking me to stop. I called the client, he called Cops. Four cops came by. The first one said it's OK what I'm doing, the second one disagreed and tried to lecture me on Boundary Law " The fence is there more than 7 years and it becomes a part of neighbor's property, If she doesn't want me to touch it, I should put the boards back".
I told him I'm not in a position to decide where the property line is. Only the neighbors (by an agreement) or the Judge can decide about the location of the boundary line. Before I left the site I showed the Cops a copy of the "Right of Entry" civil code. They said I could get arrested for trespassing.
I would appreciate sharing your experience about such situations.
I believe a Law enforcement Officer should enforce the law, not interpreting it. I'm sure my opinion would piss off the Officer with the comment on the fence.

PLS7393 · Post by **PLS7393** » Wed Jul 23, 2008 11:17 am

Was the Right of Entry Card that you showed the peace officers the current one, or old one?

A few years ago while employed at the City of Hayward, we had a surveyor complain because one of the city police officers was giving his opinion to the property owners too. In essence the police officer was practicing land surveying by instructing the property owner where the boundary line was.

Peace Officers need to be educated to what the law really says, and unfortunately they don't learn (or attempt to learn it) until they get called out to a property with a surveyor on it.

They sure aren't going to be open to learning the law pertaining land surveying from a land surveyor.

Sako, are you comfortable stating which city you encountered this in?

E_Page · Post by **E_Page** » Wed Jul 23, 2008 11:44 am

Law enforcement have a very broad range of laws to enforce, so you shouldn't necessarily expect them to know the particular one (or in this case, 3) that applies.

They won't give a rat's rear end about anything in the B & P code. You need to show them the section of the Penal Code that parallels it. I think that the current ROE card has all 3 applicable sections.

Bear in mind that the ROE actually only applies to licensed surveyors. But if you don't elaborate on that, they may not know to ask.

Search for previous threads on this subject. Others have had good results working with law enforcement by taking the time to speak with the watch commander to educate them on the R.O.E., they can look it up in the Penal Code and satisfy themselves as to the correctness of what you are telling them.

You may also want to explain to the watch commander that the one officer in the field was incorrect in making a blanket statement regarding fences and boundaries. You may want to allude slightly to liability to the dapartment in regard to making statements that amount to practicing without a license. You probably don't want to say anything to the effect that the officer was "out of line" or anything similarly lacking in diplomacy.

Arrange ahead of time for an officer to be available to "keep the peace" should it be necessary.

Removing fence boards probably did not help your cause any. The first thought that the officer probably had was something about property damage.

LA Stevens · Post by **LA Stevens** » Wed Jul 23, 2008 12:45 pm

Some surveyors had similar problems in Marin County. Attached you'll find a Right of Entry presentation I gave at the Marin County Police Chiefs monthly meeting a short while ago. Gary forwarded the article to Sonoma County with great success, also. Taking the time to educate others goes along way with our standing in the community.

Hope this helps!

sako · Post by **sako** » Wed Jul 23, 2008 2:28 pm

The police Officer was from the City of Santa Clara. I showed him the California Civil Code 846.5. He started interpreting what the meaning of words "legally" and "authorized" are. I found no common sense in that conversation and ended it.

E_Page · Post by **E_Page** » Wed Jul 23, 2008 3:05 pm

Cops don't care about the Civil Code. To them, it represents a civil matter, not a law enforcement matter. You need to show him the Penal Code.

I don't know the exact context of the conversation, but he might have been on to something with the "legally" and "authorized" discussion. If you are not licensed, you are not legally authorized, or exempted from the tresspass laws under these sections. By strict reading of the law, only the LS is covered, not the unlicensed employees.

Good article, Larry. I saved it for future use.

btaylor · Post by **btaylor** » Wed Jul 23, 2008 8:49 pm

Unfortunately you were not dealing with the typical cop I have dealt with here in the Bay Area. Many seem to know the ROE stuff, or know we have a right, and are on our side. There are some people, who are privileged to wear the badge, that seem to have it in their DNA to take the side of the complainant and be antagonistic to you. I have had that once, but otherwise I expect you would not get that type of silliness in the future. You were wise to clam up with that one.

Lee Hixson · Post by **Lee Hixson** » Thu Jul 24, 2008 5:01 am

Larry....

Excellent article. And great idea to formally present it to the officers like that.

May I use it for the enlightenment of officers in my area?

Lee

LA Stevens · Post by **LA Stevens** » Thu Jul 24, 2008 6:36 am

Sure, anyone can use the article. It's nice it made on to the City's Police Department Bulletin.

In the older affluent areas around here, I will write a letter to the neighbors and cc the local police department the time frame I expect to be working. Sometimes I will be notified from neighbors with special access requirements or better yet an old plat that I was unaware of which helps rectify the retracement effort.

Many of the departments asked if we could notify them before we go on site, then they'd be less likely to have guns drawn (possible burglary suspect) if they get a call from neighbors. Not a bad idea, the orange vest makes for an easy target for a rookie.

LA Stevens · Post by **LA Stevens** » Thu Jul 24, 2008 9:26 am

Lee,

The presentation was given at the monthly meeting of the Marin County Police Chiefs. The District Attorney presided over the meeting and included every managing officer (typically 2nd in command, dependent upon size of department) of the different police departments including the Highway Patrol, Park Service Police and a few others who carry pistolas. If they have such a meeting in your County, it's a good way to tackle many departments at the same time. However, it did take quite a while to set the meeting up.

Gary O, Sonoma County Surveyor, was able to send the article, via email, to Sonoma County Sheriffs Department Captain of Field Services who forwarded it to all sworn. He did this because of the occasional calls he received from deputies in the field. That maybe another way to educate without taking as much time.

Good Luck!

Coy Glasscock · Post by **Coy Glasscock** » Fri Jul 25, 2008 8:48 am

Attached you will find a â€œMicrosoft Publisherâ€ file (in ZIP format) that I have created. You can have this printed on back and front of a Business Card to hand out when needed. Keep a few in your wallet next to your ROE card.

It says the same thing as the attached â€œMicrosoft Wordâ€ file, just in a format that will fit on a Business Card.

Lee Hixson · Post by **Lee Hixson** » Fri Jul 25, 2008 9:06 am

thanks, BUT....

the zip file contained a virus and froze my computer....

Coy Glasscock · Post by **Coy Glasscock** » Fri Jul 25, 2008 9:11 am

The forum won't let me upload a "PUB" file so I zipped it to get it posted.

Try this one, just change the last three letters from "PDF" to "PUB".

Lee Hixson · Post by **Lee Hixson** » Fri Jul 25, 2008 9:13 am

all is OK now.....

thanks...

Coy Glasscock · Post by **Coy Glasscock** » Fri Jul 25, 2008 9:14 am

Went back and downloaded the zip file, I am running Norton and have no listing of a virus.

PLS7393 · Post by **PLS7393** » Sun Aug 03, 2008 9:36 pm

Good article there Larry. Another good piece of info for my arsenal.

Lee Hixson · Post by **Lee Hixson** » Mon Aug 04, 2008 4:25 am

Incidentally, when I had the printer prepare the 2-sided "access card" in order to get all that text in the font was so small as to be unreadable. Even the 20-year old clerk couldn't read it. So I cut some of the text out, shortening it to the gist of each law and that worked better. I'll try to attach it for those who want to check it out.

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Discussion with a police officer

Discussion with a police officer

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