This is typical

[hellsangle]

"Phil,

it is possible to do a simpler survey?
At this point, the back neightbor and I are mostly interested in confirming where the property line is between our two properties. That only requires that a surveyor stake the two property corners, and it doesn't require that the surveyor do any drawings.

Is this at all possible, and at a lower cost?"

"Sorry, Mrs Smith,

Business & Professions Code requires me to file a Record of Survey map of the opined boundary. Phil"

How do you educate - when cheap is paramount?

I bet she finds someone else to do a boundary. (I've been hand-holding and making suggestions with this potential client since February.)

Can you imagine if only a topo was required . . . the client definitely wouldn't order a survey if we also had to file a Record of Survey, (setting or not setting points?! By the way this is a 1933 subdivision with two monuments set and one monument found. The monument being at lot corners and none have been recovered. The assumption being what Mr. Turnrose speculated . . . destroyed by fencing/improvements/etc.)

Have a nice weekend, all.

Crazy Phil Surveyor to Recorder

[DWoolley]

Pretty common to my experience. When I have someone tell me they "only need one line" I tell them the price is the same, but I will throw in the other three lines for free.

Why does she think she needs to know where her line is?

DWoolley

[hellsangle]

They think the fence is off by five feet because it doesn't match the power poles in their back yard.

[CBarrett]

This is not new to any of us. Cost negotiation always happens, on small or large projects, when talking to a client of any sort. Educating the client and letting them come to terms is part of the process. Sometimes you accept that the client doesn't come to terms and goes elsewhere. Every. Single. Proposal.

If you quote $500 the other side will try to get you down to $300
If you quote $5000 the other side will try to get you down to $3000
If you quote $50,000 the other side will try to get you down to $30,000
If you quote $500,000 the other side will try to get you down to $300,000 ...... etc...

Whas that a rhetorical question, or do you actually want to hear how other surveyors deal with these kinds of situations?

[Ian Wilson]

Why not use it as an opportunity to properly educate the caller?

Explain that under the statutes that govern the practice of land surveying, any surveyor locating the rear line of their parcel would be required to file a Record of Survey or risk loosing their license. If the surveyor cuts corners by not filing the RS, where else are they cutting corners? If this survey might need attorneys and courts, the survey without a map might not stand up well.

In fact, whether or not the surveyor mentions filing a Record of Survey might be a “bright line” test when calling around!

You will always loose some to lower costs. That’s the nature of the beast.

BTW – I got one job because I mentioned needing to file an RS when the client first spoke to me. It turned out that he was a retired real estate attorney who had called a list of other surveyors and rejected all of them because they failed to note the RS requirement.

From a recent Administrative Court filing: Respondent merely pre-calculated the boundary in the office prior to performing any field work, found at least two monuments in the field to match his precalculated record data and then set the monuments at the pre-calculated record locations. Respondent’s "shortcut" method ignored other existing monumentation within the block and ignored senior and junior rights issues, performing only a small fraction of the work that a minimally competent land surveyor would perform. Respondent reestablished the boundaries of the above lots with no real ties to controlling monumentation, and no reestablishment notes of all retraced boundary lines required to properly re-establish the subject property relative to the adjacent and adjoining properties.

[hellsangle]

Well said gang . . .

I've been trying to "educate" for fifty years. Like Ian said . . . if an adjoiner doesn't like the results . . . and no map was filed, what did they "buy"? Possibly a can of worms! Should it wind up in court might the "affordable" surveyor be impeached if he/she a stack of BPELSG citations and not filed a Record of Survey? They saved a lot of money on the front end - all to watch their fiscal resources go up in smoke in court, huh? (If it ever got that far)

I've been doing estimates so long . . . it's like fishing. Patience, Grasshopper, patience.

[CBarrett]

With education the client, I usually start with some sort of an analogy or a metaphor that they connect with, then I try to reel them in.

Here are some examples of what I may have used in the past. (I wrote those yesterday, then I figured I better ask if that was a rhetorical question or not)
From yesterday:
Some people will listen and understand, some will not. Part of staying in business is developing a business model which can withstand those fluctuations.

I've had my own engineers ask over the years, how come [insert major competitor name here] can do it for $30,000 and you need $50,000. I have been known to tell them, "why don't you hire them and we can both find out". and "maybe they are using surveying as a loss leader the way engineers often do, in hopes to get the rest of the work their way as well."

Smaller surveys - "Well I am afraid I would have to cut too many corners in order to meet that price" That always makes them wonder what the other guy will have to do...

Or the way the blueprinters and printers used to tell us, "You still have to pay a $100 setup fee, whether you run one copy or 1000 copies of this map"
or "It doesn't work as simple as buying apples, $1 for one apple, $3 for 3 apples. It's more like growing a tree, to eventually get the apples. Whether you will pick one apple, or 100, you still have to grow a tree first." Or car analogies are great - "to get to that one screw, I nearly have to take the whole damn engine out." or "You can't build a roof before you have a house to put it on."

I understand you have financial considerations, this is great news, most of my clients do. So, cost of a survey can not be broken down into "cost per line". Let's talk about what you want to accomplish and I can help you find the most economical way to get there. I don't want to charge you and arm and a leg, and I am not eager to do more work than I have to either. Let's figure this out.

There are a lot of examples on life of where things don't happen in a simple linear progression. Even sports - It's not the training camp that won us the superbowl it is the lifetime of training and learning investments of each player.

I had a conversation today about a client who is going to pay over $60,000 on a project, that it triggered an RS requirement and it will probably be another 20K more.

There's always something. Some clients are high maintenance. We all have a few, and some DO find cheaper surveyors. Not every lead and every phone call turns into a client. Even for large companies in busy markets. Every client we pursue goes through a GO/NO GO evaluation. Basically going through a list of risk assessment questions which guide you through answering "will this cost us more to perform than the money we will get." It is not unusual for things to go into a "NO GO" bin.

Just recently we put a Caltrans project into a NO GO bin, because historically they ask for 5-6 competitive an QBS proposals, and historically they always pick one company, the same company for 10 or 15 years. So why spend $25,000 on a pretty proposal and fancy presentations and interviews with 5-7 high dollar surveyors when your chances of getting the project are low.

This is actually one of the topics we plan on covering in the leadership academy - business planning to make your business less vulnerable and more effective. How to connect with clients more etc...

I know some people resist continued education, but even more frequent conversations like this could be counted as continued ed. It helps us lower our guards and learn we are all after the same or similar goals. Sometimes a facilitating mechanism is needed, especially when attempting to herd cats, I mean surveyors. The stubborn overly independent endearing knuckleheads.

[bryanmundia]

Phil,

One thing that I have done in the past is offer my price and when they mention that I am too expensive or that they need to think about it/shop around, I offer to check the other surveyor's work for free. I let the client know that I would be happy to review the other surveyor's contract as well as their final deliverable for the client at no cost. No hard feelings between the potential client and myself, I explain that this is a way for me to help them get what they are entitled to by the law when hiring a land surveyor. Most of the time they appreciate the honesty and once you have an apples to apples comparison with a very similar scope the cost isn't much different and I have even had a few clients go with me over the person who is a few bucks cheaper because of the integrity and trust that the client has built with me through my review of their hiring process.

This has a two prong effect. First, the client appreciates that I would be willing to protect their interests as an unbiased professional. Second, I will sometimes get crappy work product or contracts which lack the minimum requirements necessary and can then file a board complaint. I will also end up with the contact information of said scofflaw so I can make a very friendly phone call and "educate" the person who really needs the "education".

[hellsangle]

Well said and good ideas, Bryan!