Cities and their reviewers

[Gromatici]

I'm forgetting this something. When you submit a Lot Line Adjustment to a City, is there a State Law that applies to whom may review it for compliance with State Law and local ordinances? Can ANYONE review it, regardless of their experience, knowledge, or is simply being the "government", good enough to qualify you to review these documents? If so, why do you need a license to prepare them? If not, what are we doing about it?

Thank you,

[mpallamary]

Thanks for the comment. Who is the "we?"

[Gromatici]

Licensed land surveyors.

[mpallamary]

As you may know, I have been fighting this battle for about 40 years. Unfortunately, there seems to be little support for this effort. I have filed a great many complaints with multiple municipalities and the state board, to no avail, over this issue. It is regrettable that CLSA has never pursued this. It is a noble effort, and one founded in the law. Good luck!

[Gromatici]

So when you submit a Record of Survey, which is not considered constructive notice, there is a high level of review. Some Counties even seem to take ownership of the boundary solution. But when you submit a Parcel Merger or Lot Line Adjustment, which directly affects title, someone with no survey experience gets to review it? Makes a lot of sense! I'd feel better if it was even a non-licensed person, with experience, but nope. It's pretty much anyone.

Glad we have our priorities straight!

[Edward M Reading]

Eric,
The last paragraph of 8726:

"The review, approval, or examination by a governmental entity of documents prepared or
performed pursuant to this section shall be done by, or under the direct supervision of, a person
authorized to practice land surveying. "

[mpallamary]

And as a practical matter, from Malibu to Mexico - totally worthless!

[mpallamary]

And as a practical matter, from Malibu to Mexico - totally worthless!

[Sunburned_Surveyor]

Eric and Mike:

I've also struggled with this issue in many jurisdictions. Let me know if either of you would be interested in co-writing an article on this topic for the next issue of California Surveyor.

Landon

[LS_8750]

They're Government. What do you expect? It's always been that way. How many times you see a cop blast through an intersection only to beat you to a parking spot at the local diner?

[Edward M Reading]

You can either bitch or file a complaint. It takes 10 minutes.

[mpallamary]

Hi Edward,

I have filed several complaints, some are 5 to 6 years old. I am still waiting for a response.

The last significant complaint I filed took ten years before I got a response, all well documented.

I have filed about half a dozen complaints about monument destruction in San Diego over as many years. According to the Board, "they are still looking into it." Every day, hundreds of monuments are destroyed and nothing is done.

[Edward M Reading]

Perhaps you are not pursuing them correctly. I've filed two complaints recently and both were settled within a year to my satisfaction. Feel free to contact me if you would like some assistance.

[Peter Ehlert]

^ Mr.Reading ^
agreed. old habits are hard to break

[PLS7393]

I've filed two complaints recently and both were settled within a year to my satisfaction.

Were your complaints against a private surveyor, or a government employee? I think that is where Michael Pallamary is going with his on-going complaints against a government employee.

[mpallamary]

Edward, thanks! You can help me pursue my outstanding complaint articulated in the article I wrote, regarding monuments destroyed in La Jolla Shores?

I inquire about this every year, to no avail.

As a general rule, the Board does not pursue complaints against government employees.

[mpallamary]

I have been told by city employees are not subject to the Land Surveyors Act because they work for the city and so far, that has proven true. There is no enforcement against them.

[mpallamary]

As an aside, the last time I filed a complaint, one was filed against me and it was instantly and vigorously pursued in rather dramatic fashion. It was eventually dropped because the charges were false. I have had several retaliatory complaints filed against me and they have all been vigorously pursued, and investigated within a month's time at great time and cost to me.

With regards to the City of San Diego destroying thousands of survey monuments, they filed a complaint and I had to hire an attorney. The City claimed I had to turn over all my private survey records, including control work, despite the fact that I had filed surveys in every single instance. Surveys wherein the monuments I set were all destroyed.

The ones I have filed against local municipalities are still "under investigation," in spite of overwhelming documentation and client participation. It is instances like this that a Grand Jury is helpful.

[mpallamary]

Several years ago I had a run in with a government agency. I know that a complaint was going to be filed against me so I sent a letter to the Director of the Department of Consumer Affairs, explaining what happened and I predicted the complaint would be coming. Sure enough, it showed up the next week. It was, of course, eventually dropped because the allegations were false. The attitude of these government employees is that they are immune and besides, if something happens, they are protected.

[mpallamary]

Hi Edward,

The attached form was adopted as a requirement five years ago. In every single instance I have asked for this form from state agencies to local municipalities, not one agency has filed one. Out of curiosity, has your city? If so, can you send it to me? If not, why? One of the reasons these forms are required is so that you can figure out who is in "responsible charge" of certain work. So far, it has been my experience that no one employed by the government wants to take responsible charge for anything. I have begun collecting them after compelling the municipalities I work with, to file them. Mind you this is a five-year old requirement that is required of the public sector.

[David Kendall]

As a general rule, the Board does not pursue complaints against government employees.

Yep, that's also why the CT surveyor kooks don't have to file surveys.

I'm not calling all of them kooks, only the ones who perform land surveying services and never file anything.

[mpallamary]

It is much worse than that and far more insidious. Take my word for it!

[btaylor]

It is much worse than that and far more insidious. Take my word for it!

So Mike, this is likely a redundant question based on what you have said, but you're saying the Board doesn't threaten the City Surveyor/City Engineer with a fine or license removal at all when this issue comes up? You never get any documented response regarding their (lack of) enforcement of your complaint?

[Edward M Reading]

Hi Edward,

The attached form was adopted as a requirement five years ago. In every single instance I have asked for this form from state agencies to local municipalities, not one agency has filed one. Out of curiosity, has your city? If so, can you send it to me? If not, why? One of the reasons these forms are required is so that you can figure out who is in "responsible charge" of certain work. So far, it has been my experience that no one employed by the government wants to take responsible charge for anything. I have begun collecting them after compelling the municipalities I work with, to file them. Mind you this is a five-year old requirement that is required of the public sector.

Hi Mike,
Yes, my "city" has a NOD on file with the Board. If you ask them, they will provide it to you.

[mpallamary]

The city does absolutely nothing. The city filed a complaint against me for filing a complaint about thousand of monuments they destroyed. After extensive and detailed documentation, a grand jury report, and two investigative television stories, the city told me that I had to turn all of my private records going back 40 years to them! They invoked this provision of the PLSA:


8771 - (e) It shall be the duty of every licensed land surveyor or licensed civil engineer legally
authorized to practice land surveying to assist the governmental agency in matters of maps, field
notes, and other pertinent records. Monuments set to mark the limiting lines of highways, roads,
streets or right-of-way or easement lines shall not be deemed adequate for this purpose unless
specifically noted on the corner record or record of survey of the improvement works with direct
ties in bearing or azimuth and distance between these and other monuments of record.

In addition to all the monuments the city destroyed, they destroyed 40 years worth of field control I had established. I explained that there could be conflicts if I tried to reset some monuments. The city, in response threatened me and I had to hire a lawyer. A complaint was filed against me because of this issue. The Board did not pursue my complaints against the city. Under a Public Records Act request, the city had documented THOUSANDS of monuments they had destroyed. I learned about this from a city employee who wanted to help. See the attached.

At the end of the day, I was the subject of a complaint filed by the city, with the Board.

Nothing has been done against the city. The matter is "still under investigation" while I had to hire a lawyer to defend myself for filing a complaint against the city. Meanwhile, more monuments are destroyed by the city every day. One day, I was in the field watching them being destroyed by sidewalk construction and I called the city surveyor - from the field - while watching this and I took pictures and sent them in. In return, the Board pursued a complaint against me.

***********************************************************

Hi Ed!

Thanks for the reply. I am very pleased! Thanks for sharing.