Land surveying after a Fire Storm

[mpallamary]

Howdy,

I have added a segment to my upcoming presentation at the State Conference on Surveying after a Firestorm. I would like to encourage as many people as possible who have dealt with this issue to participate. My goal is for CLSA to develop an outline or protocol to be employed in a wildfire or mudslide or other natural disaster. This is a topical issue that warrants a discussion and one which will hopefully result in CLSA adopting some much-needed guidelines.

See you there.

[RAM]

Here, it can make life easier, makes it easy to find the corners. most corners are not destroyed by the fire, the caps are likely altered but in a rural area most of the time your measurements can confirm the monuments you find. It is dirty work, as working in a burn area, you will be covering in the ash and soot. Makes it very easy to see the hazards that are often hidden in the brush, mining works, deep drainage's, etc.Setting line stakes is a breeze compared to fighting the brush.

[Mr. Smith]

That is true about the brush being gone, line of site is no problem. Curb, gutter and streets still exist.
In the case I was involved in the metal locator was useless.
In Weed the state graded the whole area, so all the tools, parts, fence wire and 1 trillion nails occupied search locations.
The good news for us was most of the original mapping and monumentation was solid.

Funny thing about fires in brush covered areas; do not be surprised if you find 4 iron pipes in a 6' diameter area for a section corner.

Sorry Mr. M. I will not be available to attend to give my 3 cents.

Bri

[David Kendall]

Currently working in small lot subdivisions where the mapping is tight. Historically there has never been a corner record or record of survey filed in most of the subdivisions in question.

Not one corner record or record of survey to date.

Going forward, there will be many. I estimate 20-50 filings in Coffey Park alone (there are several different small lot subdivisions which burned down). Centerline monuments show no conflict with the record. The only discrepancies will lie in locations of original monuments on the rear lines of the subdivsion. Occupation is non-existent. Everything burned. Pipes are being found encased in concrete at 4x4 fence corner posts. If they are within tolerance we will hold them, otherwise we call them disturbed and set something new.

My inclination is to attempt to work with other surveyors to discuss and resolve conflicts and to coordinate mapping of of this subdivision so there is only one filing and the property owners are spared the expense of redundant filings.

So far the barriers are political. One surveyor claims the liability is too great for him to work with other firms. One says it is too complicated to try to coordinate with other firms.

I believe these barriers can be overcome. I would like to brainstorm and identify ANY POTENTIAL OBSTACLE to a coordinated mapping effort of this kind.

Every lot will be surveyed sooner or later. For the larger firms that have 100 plus lots contracted it may be sensible for them to do their own mapping. For the smaller firms it seems sensible to StarNet all of the redundant measurements and have a list of corner notes indicating what was set on each corner and by whom and on what date. Every surveyor involved can sign the map.

I see a great opportunity for surveyors to work together and create some positive action in the community. The alternative will be messy and costly to the community.

What sort of legacy do we want as a profession?

[Tony Cinquini]

Mike,

I believe your topic will be very timely. The Sonoma County Chapter put together a special committee to try to coordinate a local CLSA response to the fire victims. We are currently putting together a FAQs paper to distribute to the homeowners, many of which don't know what we do as Professional Land Surveyors or the difference between a topographic survey or boundary survey. Our County Surveyor has also coordinated a GIS page to which the survey community can add the locations where they are working to facilitate coordination in the many subdivision.

I personally have coordinated with three other firms in the area and am very impressed with the professionalism of their surveyors. Everyone I talked to was collaborative and freely shared information.

-TC

[David Kendall]

Mike,

I believe your topic will be very timely. The Sonoma County Chapter put together a special committee to try to coordinate a local CLSA response to the fire victims. We are currently putting together a FAQs paper to distribute to the homeowners, many of which don't know what we do as Professional Land Surveyors or the difference between a topographic survey or boundary survey. Our County Surveyor has also coordinated a GIS page to which the survey community can add the locations where they are working to facilitate coordination in the many subdivision.

I personally have coordinated with three other firms in the area and am very impressed with the professionalism of their surveyors. Everyone I talked to was collaborative and freely shared information.

-TC

Tony that’s very encouraging. Just out of curiosity, with which firms do you collaborate and how does that work? Are you only sharing survey data or are you sharing drafting duties as well? Will there be one map filed between the three firms with several signatures in the surveyor certificate?

Great idea though, thanks for sharing!!

[mpallamary]

Tony, would you be interested in joining me at the presentation?

[Tony Cinquini]

Mike,
I would be happy to share what I have learned. Please give me a call at your convenience and we can discuss what you have in mind.
-TC

[LS_8750]

Tony,
Is the GIS page up and running?
I'm happy with that idea if it is live.
Cheers.

[land butcher]

I wasn't involved in it but a lot of maps had to be filed after the big fire in Laguna Beach about 25 years ago. I wonder how that worked out as the mons in Laguna beach suck.

[land butcher]

Too bad there isn't some way of taking all the surveys in a tract or block and compile them as one map.

[mpallamary]

I am compiling an outline for the conference. Does anyone have any ideas to share beforehand? The more participation the better.

[David Kendall]

I am compiling an outline for the conference. Does anyone have any ideas to share beforehand? The more participation the better.

I’m interested in historical cases of land surveyors from different companies collaborating on field work and mapping work for an overwhelming project.

I know in the late 1970s the entire community (5 or 6 companies??) came together to survey the addition to Redwood National Park. I haven’t spoken with anyone who participated in this contract (McGee may be the only one still practicing and he would have been pretty green at that time, probably didn’t even have a GPS yet) but I have seen the contract paperwork in old files and it seems like it was a well considered operation.

The big difference is that job had one client. This one seems much harder to handle due to individual liability and varying demands on separate parcels. I still feel like it could work out and be some great value for Joe Public and for unifying the surveying community. I don’t feel like anyone really cares enough (or has time) to try to figure it out.

If there is one thing that our professional community could come together and agree on, this ought to be it. Maybe everyone is blinded by the dollar signs or the divisions in ideology are just too great....

Regardless, I would like to know if anyone is willing to offer historical examples of surveyors working together on something.

[SPMPLS]

In the same neighborhood.

http://www.adobeinc.com/sites/adobeinc. ... racing.pdf

http://www.californiasurveyors.org/cals ... urv168.pdf

[David Kendall]

In the same neighborhood.

http://www.adobeinc.com/sites/adobeinc. ... racing.pdf

http://www.californiasurveyors.org/cals ... urv168.pdf

Good one, I missed that article...

I wonder what has changed in the last 5 or 6 years

[David Kendall]

Please consider the following:

According to Mr. Quartaroli, responses have been mixed. Some say the situations are being handled poorly while others in the same region say everything is perfect.... Any input will be appreciated. Thanks - DK

<Respond directly to his email address>

From: Mike Quartaroli [mike@quartaroli.com]
Subject: Wildfire Zone Cleanup-Monument Preservation

I am the chairman of the Survey Monument Conservation Committee of the California Land Surveyors Association Central Valley Chapter.

The committee is attempting to initiate discussion to include monument preservation as a function of the of the Wildfire Cleanup Process. (Shouldn’t monument preservation be included in the definition of “disaster clean-up”?) A series of questions have been prepared to help the Committee understand the impacts to monument preservation from the cleanup and rebuilding processes.


Wildfire Zone

Monument Preservation Questionnaire



- From what you have seen, has the cleanup process destroyed survey monuments?


- Is it too early to determine?


- Are certain areas affected more than others?


- Are some neighborhoods (communities) impacted more than others as it relates to monument destruction?


Modern subdivision


Antiquated subdivision


Metes and bounds parcels


Aliquot parcels


(Some neighborhoods/communities may be dominated with one or more of these Lots/Parcels patterns).



(What distinguishes a modern subdivision from an antiquated subdivision in your community/neighborhood?)



- Does the fire zone have many monuments of record or are monuments scarce in the fire zone?


- To your knowledge, do fire zone building permits require property lines to be marked by a Land Surveyor?


- Critical set-back situations?


- Street right-of-way lines?


- Easement limits?


(Is there set criteria for when it is required to mark Lot/Parcel line(s), right-of-way line(s), or easement line(s)?)



- Are encroachment permits being issued to utility companies (contractors) for utility repair work?


- Does the County encroachment permit process require utility companies (contractors) to comply with PLS Act Sec. 8771?


- How is compliance “Ensured” as per 8771(d)?


- Does the County have a survey staff to manage monument preservation?


- What problems have you seen with the cleanup and rebuilding process that affected survey monuments and property ownership rights?


Please share any monument preservation related experiences (good or bad) you may have encountered in the wildfire cleanup and rebuilding process OR any thoughts you may have on this topic.

Michael L. Quartaroli

Licensed Land Surveyor, LS 4450