DWoolley wrote: Interestingly, CLSA members will find that the obstacles are other CLSA members. For example, one of the OC proposals is to require land surveyors to have their company name, contact information and the licensee's number displayed on the vehicle with a prescribed font size (the language was copied from the contractor's code). This is professional and puts pressure on unlicensed practice. In a meeting with licensed surveyors I literally heard a surveyor argue in opposition "if we do that we will have people calling our office!". There has been two legislative attempts to limit access to private property without permission in recent years. This limiting legislation stems from folks in the Central Valley trying to thwart the High Speed Rail. Fortunately, the sitting Governor - termed out in November - would not have allowed this legislation. The next Governor may not have the same position. All land surveying projects would be severely impacted if we had to obtain permission to access every property. And yet, mark my words, there will be licensed surveyors argue against the proposal. DWoolley
UPDATE: As predicted, several people argued against the proposal of having the equivalent to the contractors requirements to have the name and license numbers prominently displayed on their vehicles. Yesterday the CLSA Board of Directors decided they do not want the public to know who is on their property or the fact they are licensed professionals authorized to be on their property without permission. This is a lucky break for the unlicensed practice folks - survey on fellas. The interesting juxtaposition is to consider the fervor of these same folks in pursuing their "public awareness" programs. If you are reading this and smirking...you are in good company. Carnys 1, Professionals 0. Next.
DWoolley
Curious what would be the argument against having the information on the vehicle, other than "it costs money".
drawing a property line on a satellite photo that closes is great. but where do I start the line and where is it at the first angle point, and the next and the....?
its where do I start and where do I finish this figure. Many times I have seen this google earth stuff with the fences "over the line" and since this picture is provided by the city/county/bank/real estate agent, it must be right.
the Bloomberg article stated that the "clients are sophisticated". Really? if they were they would ask, where did he start the line and how? cause they don't know and either do i.
I mean even I don't know how the lines got there superimposed on the earth. those lines are sh?t., mean nothing to me and tell the client so. in fact it is a misrepresentation of what they own and those purporting to say that it is the property, are breaking the law.
power poles and fire hydrants are another thing.
I have magnetic signs for the side of my truck with my name and number on it. works great and I recommend it. good advertising, lets everyone know that I am not with peter graves and the "mission impossible" crew. And easy enough to remove when I hit the bar in the afternoon that has stealth parking.
In response to your question I sent out a text requesting for a first hand account for the arguments against and recieved this reply:
"There was no real reason for opposition that I can recall. Someone called for the question, that passed, and it could not help but seem that the folk who voted no would be the ones who would not want someone to know they were there or be traceable. So it was not sent to the legislative committee for consideration. A few people mentioned that they do identify on their trucks and it was great advertising.
Then later when the board was asked for ideas by the public awareness chair for public awareness ... silence."
Revised from the previously posted quote per the person being quoted.
Mr. Woolley, There is no public awareness activity. CLSA has not been involved with any public awareness for 20 years or more. We used to be but that was a very long time ago - decades ago.
Over the years there have been a great many opportunities but nothing has ever been done. Dozens of suggestions have been made but none were ever considered or pursued. As with many others, I believe the objective of CLSA is to drive the profession into obsolescence.
In response to your question I sent out a text requesting for a first hand account for the arguments against and recieved this reply:
"There was no real reason for opposition that I can recall. Someone called for the question, that passed, and it could not help but seem that the folk who voted no would be the ones who would not want someone to know they were there or be traceable. So it was not sent to the legislative committee for consideration. A few people mentioned that they do identify on their trucks and it was great advertising.
Then later when the board was asked for ideas by the public awareness chair for public awareness ... silence."
Revised from the previously posted quote per the person being quoted.
DWoolley
Thank you. I didnt think there would be anything to it, but I figured I was missing something.
"As predicted, several people argued against the proposal of having the equivalent to the contractors requirements to have the name and license numbers prominently displayed on their vehicles. Yesterday the CLSA Board of Directors decided they do not want the public to know who is on their property or the fact they are licensed professionals authorized to be on their property without permission. This is a lucky break for the unlicensed practice folks - survey on fellas. The interesting juxtaposition is to consider the fervor of these same folks in pursuing their "public awareness" programs. If you are reading this and smirking...you are in good company. Carnys 1, Professionals 0. Next. "...
..."There was no real reason for opposition that I can recall. Someone called for the question, that passed, and it could not help but seem that the folk who voted no would be the ones who would not want someone to know they were there or be traceable. So it was not sent to the legislative committee for consideration....
DWoolley
Once again, when OC's pack leader doesn't get his way, he verbally abuses those who don't agree with his viewpoint. Not once, not ten times but many times more has this verbal abuse of others who disagree with him been repeated.
I respect each and every one who freely volunteers their time to serve the profession by being a member of CLSA's Board of Directors. All of whom are respectable and thoughtful professionals. It is disgraceful that this individual continues to publically paint these individuals in such negative light each and every time he doesn't get his way. It is childish and I have no doubt that these often repeated attacks have been nothing but detrimental to the image of CLSA in the public and legislature's eyes.
How long will the OC chapter continue to allow such childish and image damaging tantrums be publically displayed from their representative to the BOD?
"As predicted, several people argued against the proposal of having the equivalent to the contractors requirements to have the name and license numbers prominently displayed on their vehicles. Yesterday the CLSA Board of Directors decided they do not want the public to know who is on their property or the fact they are licensed professionals authorized to be on their property without permission. This is a lucky break for the unlicensed practice folks - survey on fellas. The interesting juxtaposition is to consider the fervor of these same folks in pursuing their "public awareness" programs. If you are reading this and smirking...you are in good company. Carnys 1, Professionals 0. Next. "...
..."There was no real reason for opposition that I can recall. Someone called for the question, that passed, and it could not help but seem that the folk who voted no would be the ones who would not want someone to know they were there or be traceable. So it was not sent to the legislative committee for consideration....
DWoolley
Once again, when OC's pack leader doesn't get his way, he verbally abuses those who don't agree with his viewpoint. Not once, not ten times but many times more has this verbal abuse of others who disagree with him been repeated.
I respect each and every one who freely volunteers their time to serve the profession by being a member of CLSA's Board of Directors. All of whom are respectable and thoughtful professionals. It is disgraceful that this individual continues to publically paint these individuals in such negative light each and every time he doesn't get his way. It is childish and I have no doubt that these often repeated attacks have been nothing but detrimental to the image of CLSA in the public and legislature's eyes.
How long will the OC chapter continue to allow such childish and image damaging tantrums be publically displayed from their representative to the BOD?
Magee,
I am loathe to reply to such thin skinned nonsense. Hiding behind a pseudonym to take shots at me or anyone else hardly serves as a model of integrity.
However, for the record and as I clearly stated, the second paragraph you have posted aren't my words. As I stated, I was quoting someone that was at the meeting - nice try to mislead the readership.
Also, understand I am not the OC "pack leader". We have a democratic process in Orange County - our leaders are the dues paying chapter members. As the biggest chapter in the state it would appear the system and the respective representation is working. At present, I am merely the Membership Chair and one of ten Directors (I am 1/10th the voice).
Although "pack leader" is flattering, it is inappropriate and moreover, disrespectful to our current OC Executive Committee, the other 9 OC Directors and our chapter membership. Was this meant to demonstrate your stated "respect for each and every one who freely volunteers their time to serve the profession by being a member of CLSA's Board of Directors"? If so, you missed the mark.
Abusive? Ridiculous on its face. Point of fact, my official writing is still proofed and approved by at least one, usually two, Directors prior to sending. Plain talk, although absent disingenuous niceties, is my preferred method of communication - I am not likely to sneak around calling someone names under a false name and act as though I have staked out the moral high ground.
There is very little current material out there with my signature - further evidence I am not in a position of leadership. I rely on the current leadership to give my haters little to stay up late pacing the floor. Rest assured, you get the G version of me for your sensibilities - yes, you're welcome. If the "abuse" is so distinctly painful why do you martyr yourself with the CLSA forum, self flagellation?
Magee, if at first you don't succeed, please try, try again. Careful not to stub your toe on a brick of honesty.
DWoolley
Last edited by DWoolley on Tue Jul 31, 2018 8:14 am, edited 2 times in total.
Back to the primary basis of this particular post. I received the email this afternoon. Once again, I ask the questions, is there any reason CLSA is not engaging in this discussion at a national level? Does anyone care?
*************************************************************************************************
Marc S. Cheves, PS, Editor, The American Surveyor:
Reading the article on the subject line that I just received in the mail today made me say to myself: "Right on!" Please forward this to the author, Michael J. Pallamary, PS, since his email address in not shown in your publication. In blue below is what I recently sent to Perry Trunick with POB. I think there may be some parallels to what Pallamary states. I hope there are no "boundary line" (territorial) jealousies, and that my perspective can be viewed from the prism of whats good for our profession.
Appreciatively,
Perry,
Enjoyed your article "What Do You Do?" in July 2018 POB. Please pass on these thoughts to the appropriate person or persons at Future of Surveying Forum. My input here is generated by having spent 57 years in the surveying & mapping career field, including military, governmental, & private sector work.
I believe we are hampered by laziness in how we describe ourselves & how we fail to protect what we create on behalf of the land owners we are licensed to protect. "What's in a name?"
If people ask me what I do, I proudly say I am a "professional land surveyor." The general public does not have the slightest clue what it takes to achieve that licensed & legal title. I do not just say I am a "surveyor" - way too casual for public consumption! Every 10 years the U.S. Bureau of Census hires "surveyors" off the street to gather demographic statistics. If I answer an online questionnaire the general public might conclude I am a "surveyor." If I stand outside a market & collect signatures for some kind of initiative I might be called a "surveyor." Instead of National Society of Professional Surveyors (NSPS) my bias says our national organization should be named National Society of Professional Land Surveyors (NSPLS). My 4-year B.Sc. engineering degree attained at Cal State U, Fresno is termed Surveying & Photogrammetry and I feel it should have been called Land Surveying & Photogrammetry.
When I moved 32 times state-to-state doing geodetic surveying & P.L.S.S. corner monument recovery for the U.S.G.S. National Mapping Division I would hear county officials & the public refer to boundary monuments as "pins." I still hear that today in Montana by the general public and by government officials, but more importantly & sadly, by professional land surveyors themselves. We PLS's don't set fragile, non-permanent corner "pins" but instead set solid, permanent corner "monuments" at bearings & distances shown on a legally recorded plat. State regulation on monumentation does not use the word "pin." Use of this term, to me, implies to the public there is not much involved in setting boundary marks if they are merely "pins."
Finally, I believe the land surveying profession itself is too lackadaisical & too apolitical about protecting boundary monuments we set to protect private property rights. Way too often cultivators, fence builders, road excavators, & utilities installers obliterate corner monuments. Even worse, after they do so, they jam the corner monument back in the ground in the wrong place & land owners use the erroneously set monuments for years, building fences, planting trees, etc, often on the wrong property!!! Or they build a dwelling encroaching over the boundary line. Money talks! There should be a $1,000 fine for destroying a junior, dependent property corner monument, and a $2,000 fine for destroying a P.L.S.S. independent, senior monument (this should apply from Ohio westward where the P.L.S.S. is applied). If that became reality the general public would sit up and pay attention to anyone who called himself or herself a licensed professional land surveyor because local stories would spread about the guy down the road that negligently destroyed a corner monument and had to pay a significant fine for that "criminal" act!
Thanks for considering my input & passing it on,
Tony Novotny, P.L.S.
Professional Land Surveyor-Mapper-Broker/Owner
M.A.P.S. (Montana Allure Properties & Services), P.L.L.C.
Can show properties weekends with 3 days advance notice!
Purple Heart'd Former U.S. Army Sgt., MOS: Topographic Surveyor
U.S. Geological Survey, Nat'l Mapping Div., Supervisory Cartographer (Ret.)
NOTE: Email is best since work areas are often outside of cell coverage
819 Oakwood Dr., Belgrade, MT 59714-8364
Apropos to this thread, on the Koch Brother's website:
"But today, occupational licensing is eroding U.S. economic freedom—hindering the launch of new enterprises, restricting competitors from entering industries, and stifling employment. In short, we’ve given our lawmakers and regulators the power to snuff out ingenuity, innovation, and entrepreneurship."
Hmm. Occupational licensing and professional licensing being grouped together here? It doesn't matter. I understand.
"A slow and painful death of land surveying" ....
"Deregulation" ....
Any brain surgeons out there want to trade their surgical tools next weekend for a plumb bob? I saw a couple demo videos on Youtube I want to try out. There's gotta be a brain surgeon wanting to build a fence this weekend right? As for me, I am interested in exploring the nature of consciousness.
