Surveyors Right of Entry - Worthless in San Jose!

[William Magee]

My main point being is that it was decided by CLSA, not Evan, that the electronic document would be available for members only free of charge, as a benefit for being a member. If the governance of CLSA has no problem with free distribution of the electronic form to non members and public at large, I can agree with that. I can also see CLSA would keep their products under their control, for sale as printed copies or for the members use as one of the benefits of being a member.
Point being is that CLSA decided to have the electronic version available as a members only benefit and purposely chose to copyright it. I am simply pointing out what I consider prudent behavior. As a member yourself, you should not make unilateral actions on a work product of the organization. If the organization's governance chooses to change policy on this, then I am fine with it. I am not fine with a single member making unilateral policy changes.

[mpallamary]

Mr. Magee,

Are you a licensed land surveyor? Are you a member of CLSA? Why do you hide? I agree with Evan - by and large, your posts are generally shared in a negative way. You rarely, if at all, offer any positive contributions.

I am going to send CLSA a check in the amount of $100.00 to subsidize the distribution of the brochure. I will do so in your name, thus making a positive contribution to the surveying community and you can get the credit.

If I may, and I speak for others, you should really consider coming out from behind the shadows with the rest of us who identify ourselves and make ourselves available. Those of us who possess character and fortitude, subject ourselves to open public criticism by identifying ourselves; it is something adults do. Indeed, one of the benefits of speaking in the open, is that people will respect your views even though they may not agree with you.

Come out of your basement and engage in an open dialogue. We are not in high school. Be a man.

[E_Page]

OK. Let's ignore the anonymous heckler and get this thread back on track.

Anyone else have anything helpful to add regarding the ROE? Personal experiences of successfully educating police and/or landowners would be especially helpful.

[Lee Hixson]

A decade ago I called the Marysville Police Department for a civil standby while I set my rebar to mark a P/L for a residential lot in the downtown area. The neighbor of my client had a habit of parking in the space between the two houses. The block had never been surveyed and broken down since the original map in the 1800s. My resolution put the line basically midway between the houses. Given a volatile history with the neighbor (very aggressive, boisterous, threatening arguments) I asked for the civil standby for my own safety.

The officer arrived on time and kept the peace while I hammered a rebar into the A.C. at the R/W line. In fact, he was curious enough that he asked me to explain how I came up with that location so I spread open the map and gave him a summary of the process. (Many of the lots had been reconfigured via metes & bounds descriptions over the years; I did my own chain of title research to come up with the order of seniority. Interesting survey.)

The pins were set without incident and haven't heard a peep since.

[mpallamary]

Whenever I anticipated a problem, I called the police beforehand and shared the code with them. I gave them a little time to review it and then scheduled a site visit and they met me there. They informed the property owner that they were there to enforce the law and that the neighbor should not interfere with me. All went well..

[Anthony Maffia]

Magee, really? Don't change the subject - copyright issues are non-issues on this board, despite what the admins said a year ago, because they block Google and all other search engines from indexing the forum. Written posts and attachments won't be found by persons not already here, so there is no potential for wide spread copyright infringement.

[land butcher]

I have had two opportunities of having to present our Right of Entry card to a police officer
the first one read it fast and stated "That's for the courts to decide". So I guess he didn't figure it was already a law.
the second one stated "Leave now or I will arrest you".

I was working for a company so I have no idea how they handled it.

[mpallamary]

See the attached. It might be a little dated but it should help.

Evan, I sent the $100 check into the Central Office today to underwrite your use of the Right of Entry Brochure.

[mpallamary]

More to consider.

[E_Page]

Mike,

Thanks for the contribution to CLSA and thanks for the info.

[FOSTER]

Numerous times I made a trip to the Desk Sergeants office or phone call and supplied him or her with the "Right of Entry" P.L.S. Act Statute 8774. If the local police did not accommodate me to the site the Sheriffs office usually did!

[PLS7393]

1) Kind of humorous how people take words out of content with their own interpretation, lol.
2) Maybe some didn't read the original post where the ROE card was usless in the field, or an attempt to show the article from Novato PD. If those were so valuable, what good is a brochure going to do in the field? Just waste more time when I have better things to do.

Bottom line, it took me three trips to get 15 minutes of work done.

Thanks Mike for attempting to make a good point and your contribution. Maybe thats why we get along so well, cause we speak our mind in attempt to get something accomplished.

Is there a reason we don't get support on this topic from the licensing agency at the state level? They will issue a license, but I have seen on some topics they do not get involved, and stated to me they do not have any authority? That simply confuses me, but then I am only a dumb surveyor, lol.

[E_Page]

No Keith, I, and likely most did not miss that those things were useless to you in the field.

Did you miss the part where many of us suggested that you take the time to go up the chain of command to educate the local PD.

That's an investment in all your potential future similar situations and often doesn't require going beyond the watch commander (1 step up the chain).

[land butcher]

How many local PDs should one surveyor educate?

The last 2 times I requested talking to just the watch commander didn't happen. Just discussions with a flunky behind bullet proof glass.

[Dave Karoly, PLS]

Are we professionals or common laborers? Part of being a professional involves using tact and diplomacy to talk to people.

Talking to the beat cop who happens to show up is usually a waste of time. My experience is a call to the PD and ask to speak with the watch commander, explain you need to set your client's corner, they should have an officer standby to keep the peace. The beat cop is just there to make you go away or take you away but if the boss tells them to allow you to do your job and keep the peace then they'll do it. Land Surveyors tend to be impatient git-re-done type of people but sometimes a diplomatic phone call is needed.

[David Kendall]

I might try to call the GC that installed the construction fence. If that failed I would attempt to contact the adjoining property owner by phone or mail (including a sketch if by mail).

Civil standby would be my last resort.

I’ve always been pretty good at hopping fences as long as no rabid dogs are on the other side.

[Ian Wilson]

Earlier in this thread, a PDF file of a CLSA produced pamphlet on Land Surveyor’s Right of Entry was posted. This pamphlet is a copyrighted document. In defense of our copyright, I have asked Evan to remove the file. He has complied with my request.

The file is available for download and printing by members. Members can access the file by logging into the member’s portal on the CLSA website. The file is available under MEMBER”S Resources>Downloads.

Please note that you will need access to the member’s area to download this file.

The pamphlets are also available for purchase at a nominal price.

While the statues cited and discussed in the pamphlet are not copyrightable, the presentation and the discussion of the statutes is. This material was developed and reviewed using CLSA funds. For this reason, the pamphlet is copyrighted.

Thank you all for understanding, and thank you, Evan, for you efforts to educate. They are very much appreciated.

Ian Wilson, PLS
President - 2017
California Land Surveyor’s Association

[E_Page]

Before anyone goes after Ian, CAMS, or even Magee further on this, there apparently are copyright protection implications beyond just this brochure which I had not considered. A PM with an explanation of the concern by Magee to me would have been better form, but that doesn't take away from the fact that he was right, albeit for reasons he didn't articulate. Ian's explanation immediately made sense to me.

I asked Ian if a PDF with a watermark designed to protect the copyright could be made so we could repost it in that form. He didn't think that was likely. I'll pose the question to the CAMS legal people and hope that they can come up with something that allows posting of such material for the benefit of those who visit the forum but rarely, if ever peruse the Members Only portion of the CLSA website.

As I stated in a previous post, I considered it to be advertising and believe there is good advertising and educational value in being able to post something on the forum that shows what materials available in the Members Only section. I tried to figure out how to add an "UNOFFICIAL COPY" watermark to the PDF when Magee first posted his concern, but couldn't figure out how to accomplish that.

For those who did not see it, it is not the same thing as the old ROE cards. Although it was a group of surveyors who put it together (team effort by State PPC, but primary credit goes to Robert Reese), it looks like something put together by a good graphics company.

If you are a CLSA member and are not familiar with the brochure, go to the Members Only section of the main CLSA website. The PDF is there for you to inspect before ordering a pack or two. If you are not a member of CLSA, you oughtta be - there's a link on the home page for membership application.

[mpallamary]

In anticipation of this topic coming up, as I indicated previously, I sent a check in the amount of $100 to the Central Office to cover the costs of the brochure use. Ian, can you ask that the Central Office track the distribution and use of the brochure? If the $100 is exhausted, I will replenish the funds so that the brochure is available to all members at no cost up until a fee of $250 is expended.

Can Evan repost the brochure and use it for a fee of $25? If it costs more, please let me know.

As an aside, this is a miserable conversation to have. This is one of the few instances where land surveyors have contact with people and for the community, this will probably be their one and only time they run into a land surveyor. To hinder such an opportunity like this is a travesty and it runs contrary to the goals of this association of land surveyors.

Once again, I am filled with immense disappointment. To quote our preamble:

"The goal of the California Land Surveyors Association is to promote and enhance the profession of surveying, to promote the common good and welfare of its members, to promote and maintain the highest possible standards of professional ethics and practice, and to elevate the public's understanding of our profession. CLSA represents all land surveyors, whether they are employees or proprietors, whether in the public or private sector."

[E_Page]

The money isn't the issue Mike. It's about a larger pattern of either protecting copyright or not protecting it. While I, and I'm sure the CLSA appreciate your monetary contribution, it isn't going to address the bottom line issue.

What might address it is some manner of watermark that renders a posted, copyrighted brochure or other material commercially unviable, yet shows those who might be interested in obtaining good copies a view of the content. I don't know what, or if something like that could be devised and be effective per CLSA's legal counsel, but as I said, I'll pose the question.

This is not Ian, the Exec Committee, or anyone in a responsible position of CLSA leadership getting their shorts in a twist about the possibility of lost income in ROE brochure sales. It's a much larger copyright concern that might potentially affect all CLSA copyrighted material. If a solution is to be found, it will not be monetary.

[E_Page]

And again, unless the original subject of this thread has run its course (there are many good posts in this thread), can we please get it back on track and leave it there?

[Peter Ehlert]

And again, unless the original subject of this thread has run its course (there are many good posts in this thread), can we please get it back on track and leave it there?

cool, what were we talking about?

[Ian Wilson]

Thanks, Evan. If it were up to me, I have Kim Oreno at Central Office eBlast these brochures to everyone who has an email address i the ineterst of education.

However, the issue is not about this brochure; it's about copyrighted material. If we do not hold the line on one of our copyrights, we cannot hold the line on any of them. It's that simple. If we went after someone on a much more significant copyright, they would turn around, and rightly so, point out that we failed to press the issue on this one therefor we have no right to press the issue on that one.

If anyone has a solution, other than posting the statutes alone, which are not copyrightable, let us know!

Ian

[E_Page]

Thanks Ian.

Peter - I can't recall.

[mpallamary]

Forgive me for being naive perhaps but I deal with copyright issues and I am confused. It is my understanding that as long as the material includes a copyright statement, it remains copyright protected.

https://guides.lib.uci.edu/copyright/co ... how_to_use

If there is any interest I have a seminar in the hopper that deals with copyright issues relating to land surveying and I have presented it in various states across the country. It might be helpful to understand the law.