The Junior Monument and the Senior Line

LS_8750 · Post by **LS_8750** » Fri Feb 06, 2015 11:06 pm

Insanity aside, when is 0.01' enough to call a junior monument off of a senior line?

Ok? When is 0.001' enough to call a junior monument off of a senior line?

So! Now, when is 0.4', or 2.4', enough to call a junior monument off of a senior line?

Please respond with your relevant case studies and case history.

I suspect that the "senior line" concept comes from the old PLSS system when section lines closed on "senior" township lines, and the section line monuments were subordinate to the priority of the township lines.

Exactly where has that philosophy pervaded into modern times?

Be careful with your responses, because this discussion will evolve.

Regards,
Clark Stoner

LS 4722 · Post by **LS 4722** » Sat Feb 07, 2015 5:53 am

Most of the times I encounter this is when it comes to RW lines, a few times I have come across this along tract boundaries, in all situations the junior, sometimes senior with RW's, they are closing corners. Line bending is not something I agree with.

Keithwill · Post by **Keithwill** » Sat Feb 07, 2015 9:03 am

I have often posted the question of accepting my junior 1/16th corner monuments that are found to be off the senior section line and have not received real answers or comments.

Why not start here with discussions of accepting junior corners that are actually off line. And remember, that my measurements in the field, back in the 60s were not as accurate as those finger nail distances that are talked about now.

And of course, aren't most of the corner monuments being set now on existing senior lines and do you want your corner monuments to be subject to move by the measuring technicians?

Do you really have to go back to the Mayflower era, (Lucas comment) to determine the real senior line and then ignore all subsequent efforts of monumentation to determine property boundaries?

What better example to think of junior corners affecting senior lines?

Good topic of course.

Keith

LS 4722 · Post by **LS 4722** » Sat Feb 07, 2015 10:01 am

First off, how many line monuments that have been set between two non inter visible controlling end point monuments are REALLY on the control line? If any do actually fall on line, it's more of a fluke than good surveying.

and just what is so wrong in using a junior as a closing monument to a senior line? Would you rather have zig zag lines?

I am sure your 1/16th's are fine, maybe within a few tenths or a foot, what does it really matter in the boonies for a farmer?

rpost · Post by **rpost** » Sat Feb 07, 2015 6:44 pm

When surveying an interior lot in a subdivision where one line is on the subdivision line, do you need to find the senior monuments on each side before you call the interior monuments set on line good?

If the 16th is in and of record, do you need to go to the 1/4 corner?

If you do, what is your tolerance for calling it off line or on line? Good qustion Clark.

I reviewed a survey where someone called a monument off line by 0.01' on a senior line that was a few hundred feet long........ in a ruralish area.... ridiculous. I almost called him to make fun of him. It was obviously 0.02' off, according to my perfect measurements. The guy that set it must have been drunk.

Actually, I had a 0.02' bust in my traverse today..... had to rerun it.

Personally, my opinion varies depending on the survey.

Keithwill · Post by **Keithwill** » Sat Feb 07, 2015 8:37 pm

and just what is so wrong in using a junior as a closing monument to a senior line? Would you rather have zig zag lines?

I think you need to look at the definition of a closing corner and what it means in the Manual.

What is the problem with going between established corner monuments that have been set for many years and have been used by the land owners. They don't have a problem, why should surveyors?

Monuments mean things.

LS 4722 · Post by **LS 4722** » Sun Feb 08, 2015 6:26 am

I think you need to look at the definition of a closing corner and what it means in the Manual.

Forget the manual Keith, this is about ALL survey situations, not just PLSS surveys.

You never did answer the question Keith

and just what is so wrong in using a junior as a closing monument to a senior line? Would you rather have zig zag lines?

Keithwill · Post by **Keithwill** » Sun Feb 08, 2015 2:20 pm

Yes matter of fact, I believe that boundaries go through those monuments that have been established and used.

If you can find a definition of a closing corner as one that is simply off the retraced senior line, let me know.

Do junior corner monuments mean nothing?

LS 4722 · Post by **LS 4722** » Mon Feb 09, 2015 6:35 am

Do junior corner monuments mean nothing?

Every monument counts Keith. I think if you had of had more experience in the private sector then you would understand better just why we do what we do.

Keithwill · Post by **Keithwill** » Mon Feb 09, 2015 8:27 am

Well, I was a Federal Land Surveyor and have the strong opinion that even junior corner monuments should be accepted in place. That is without fraud or gross error and I am not saying 100 percent, as I have been accused of.

As you probably know, I have posted many times about the fallacy of the "bogus theory" in which certain people in BLM do in fact ignore existing private survey monuments in order to subdivide the PLSS section in the "right procedure"!

Naturally, the ignoring of those private surveyor monuments results in the pin cushion effect that I believe is the most embarrassing survey procedure of the land surveyor profession.

I believe I understand the land survey procedures as well as most and don't believe that I am hindered by not having your private land survey experience.

Think about it this way......if we are in court on opposing sides, as expert witnesses, and you testify that you moved the junior corner monument to the "real" senior and controlling line; I am going to testify that you moved a corner monument and ignored the survey law on accepting bona fide right monuments and moved it.

LS 4722 · Post by **LS 4722** » Mon Feb 09, 2015 8:49 am

if we are in court on opposing sides, as expert witnesses, and you testify that you moved the junior corner monument to the "real" senior and controlling line;

Moved???

Umm... picture attached Keith

Keithwill · Post by **Keithwill** » Mon Feb 09, 2015 8:58 am

Hmmm, so where is your 2015 boundary at?

Do you have a gap?

Is this your example of a closing corner. Would you set a new monument on the senior line where it was supposed to be,,,,,,6 inches away?

LS 4722 · Post by **LS 4722** » Mon Feb 09, 2015 9:08 am

Boundary remains the same. Your 1965 corner remains in place, you just missed the senior line a bit is all, what's the big deal?

I just read your 'edit'.

You sure do miss a lot don't you? Cant you see that there is only one monument in that picture, yours. And Yes, that is my version of a closing corner. If you have a better description of the situation, I am all ears.
And Yes again, we can measure in 2015 much better than you measured in 1965. Case closed

Keithwill · Post by **Keithwill** » Mon Feb 09, 2015 9:13 am

Ok, so I own the land to the south and I want to build a fence on my boundary line. Where do I set the corner post of the fence?

Then where does the fence line go? From my monument or along the senior line and if so, what happens to the 6 inches?

Keithwill · Post by **Keithwill** » Mon Feb 09, 2015 9:20 am

And Yes again, we can measure in 2015 much better than you measured in 1965. Case closed

That is not my understanding of survey law?

LS 4722 · Post by **LS 4722** » Mon Feb 09, 2015 9:20 am

and if so, what happens to the 6 inches?

Well, we save that. Keep retracing your surveys and when we get enough for an acre, drop 5 condos in on it, you get 25%.

Keithwill · Post by **Keithwill** » Mon Feb 09, 2015 9:24 am

Paul,

You just stepped in it.......measurements do not trump monuments!

William Magee · Post by **William Magee** » Mon Feb 09, 2015 10:13 am

Seems worth mentioning that the '09 manual does not treat closing corners the same way it did in the '73 and previous versions. There is recognition now that the retracing surveyor sould seek to determine if the original closing corner was placed as part of a faithful retracement of the senior line. If so, then it can then control the location of the senior line instead of having to set an amending monument. See 7-47 and 7-23 of the '09 manual.

This signifies a change in direction in federal retracements and is not unlike the decision making process that should be undertaken for private boundary retracement.. It is somewhat subjective to interpretation but is not an unwarranted departure from the belief that all junior monuments need to move to a later, more accurate measurement of the straight line between senior monuments.

Personally, if I was to encounter Paul's survey he graphically described hereinbefore, acceptance or rejection would be dependant on how far apart the senior monuments are, the terrain encountered, the degree of reliance, and the measurement technologies available when the junior monuments were set.

Keithwill · Post by **Keithwill** » Mon Feb 09, 2015 10:54 am

William,

The two sections of the 09 Manual are very clear to me and shows the relationships of junior corners and/or closing corners to the senior line.

The sketch that Paul posted could very well represent my 1/16th corner that I set on a section line (obviously senior) and my corner that was set with the use of an 8 chain tape and a solar transit.

Does not have to be said that my measurements were not of the precision now as argued with finger nail distances.

This example could very well be the example to discuss!

Therefore, my 16th corner monument is about 20 chains from senior corners on both sides and in rolling hills.

It is a standard BLM iron post with brass cap marked for the 1/16th corner and you want to question it's legallity?

dmi · Post by **dmi** » Mon Feb 09, 2015 10:57 am

Did anyone read the part about monuments not being controlling when THEY interfere with a senior right?

When a retracement shows a few hundredths difference between found points and lines isn't that evidence of a good correlation between the original and the retracement??

Keithwill · Post by **Keithwill** » Mon Feb 09, 2015 11:06 am

Did anyone read the part about monuments not being controlling when THEY interfere with a senior right?

Maybe I missed this.....where is it stated?

Warren Smith · Post by **Warren Smith** » Mon Feb 09, 2015 11:32 am

Isn't this covered by sections 7-23 through 7-31?

William Magee · Post by **William Magee** » Mon Feb 09, 2015 12:31 pm

Warren Smith wrote:Isn't this covered by sections 7-23 through 7-31?

Probably not the source I'd be citing if debating discrepancies in the past surveys of small parcel sequential conveyances which have experienced an exponential growth in value.

'Cause if it was my lot that ol "rag tape Joe" set a marker 6" into, it'd be sure as heck shown by my lawyer that the original line is the senior line and the 6" encroachment was pure carelessness by a shortcutting, no good fer nothing bumbling idiot.

LS 4722 · Post by **LS 4722** » Mon Feb 09, 2015 12:43 pm

Keith, I have attached a snap shot of a very recent survey that I am taking down today for recording.

When the county saw the differences between measured and record it just rattled them. The 2 pipes were set in the 60's. They were not disturbed, it's just that the crew that set them were a bit less than careful, be that as it may, I held them. Hillside area and probably loads of poison oak to deal with in the 60's, so maybe the crew was just sick and tired of the area and 4 tenths was close enough.

The next guy who comes through may reject them, saying that they were 'disturbed' and come up with a math corner or even pincushion each position. This has happened to one of my surveys, RE says the pipe was disturbed and uses straight math to pincushion an original.

I really do not care because the record I am filing is only my opinion.

So if I come across one of your pipes and I find it on one title line, but missing a senior line, I can do one of three things.

1. Bend the line.

2. Call the pipe on the senior line, which would be lying.

3. Hold the pipe as a POL on one title line, and show a 6" length to the senior line.

I would always pick No. 3 but no matter what I do, it's just my opinion and nothing more.

Warren Smith · Post by **Warren Smith** » Mon Feb 09, 2015 1:04 pm

Paul is showing appropriate retracement philosophy.

Keith is referring to BLM methodology.

Pretty different arenas, with differing means of rectifying.

California Surveyors Forums

The Junior Monument and the Senior Line

The Junior Monument and the Senior Line

Line Bending

Keith

Keith

Zig Zag lines

Keith

Ignoring private survey monuments

I dont think so

NO GAP

6 inches

HEY DID YOU READ THE PART ABOUT

Junior-Senior Corners

For Keith