Chain!

Dave Karoly, PLS · Post by **Dave Karoly, PLS** » Wed Dec 03, 2014 9:09 am

The bridge is over troubled waters.

bruce hall · Post by **bruce hall** » Wed Dec 03, 2014 10:27 am

I don't want either Dave or Evan or Warren to ever, ever, ever call me again!!! ;)

Don't care what type of bridge either.

TTaylor · Post by **TTaylor** » Wed Dec 03, 2014 10:29 am

I stand corrected.

E_Page · Post by **E_Page** » Wed Dec 03, 2014 11:47 am

Bridge? Was there a bridge? I was just floating along in my canoe, napping as the current took me along and minding my own business when some dude in a motor boat rams me. Wham!

I look up and here's this dude with the prow of his boat crunched in the side of my little canoe. He's waving a prism pole and swinging a plumb bob as if it were a mace, and hollering at me about running into his boat. "git off of my river! I don't ever want to see you in my boat again!"

Huh? What? I'm not in your boat and this ain't your river... Oh heck, nevermind. there just ain't no reasoning with some folks.

So I paddle off to shore, load my canoe onto my truck and go to a more peacful little pond to float around in. There's other boats on this pond. Once in a while some of us bump into other boats and occasinally hit each other with a paddle. But for the most part, it's a pretty peaceful little pond with lots of interesting things to see and learn about, and most of the boaters are pretty respectful of each other. Many are even friendly with each other.

Next thing you know, I look up from floating around and minding my own business and see that same darn motorboat with the same stident dude swerving this way and that, making waves, swinging a 100' steel tape over his head as if it were a lasso and hollering "Chain!, Chain!" as he sees if he can swamp some other boats as he speeds by.

So here I am, just rolling on the waves and keeping on fishing.

TTaylor · Post by **TTaylor** » Wed Dec 03, 2014 11:53 am

Evan, I like it. Very creative - it put a smile on my face!!

Warren Smith · Post by **Warren Smith** » Wed Dec 03, 2014 11:59 am

Fortunately, I can fish off my own dock. The speedboats can do what they want, the wake doesn't upset me much. If they slam into the bank, so be it ...

Keithwill · Post by **Keithwill** » Wed Dec 03, 2014 2:04 pm

Anybody want to discuss the issue of State Boards on Surveying addressing the complicated pin cushion corners.

The river has dried up with all the water under the bridge.

Warren Smith · Post by **Warren Smith** » Wed Dec 03, 2014 2:58 pm

Keith,

Since the Board of Registration is tasked with regulating the practice of land surveying, this particular issue would likely not come to its enforcement division's attention unless a pattern of misbehavior was alleged against a licensee.

The Board's mandate stems from section 8780 of the Business and Professions Code. The board may, upon its own initiative or upon the receipt of a complaint, investigate the actions of any land surveyor licensed under this chapter ... and make findings thereon.

The Board is limited to publicly reproving, suspending or revoking a license on any of several grounds, including fraud, deceit or misrepresentation, or violation of any provision of the Land Surveyors' Act.

Additionally, pursuant to section 473 of the California Code of Regulations, the Board may issue a citation for any violation of any provision of law enforced by the Board to a licensee in cases involving allegations of negligence and/or incompetence [as defined in section 404 (u) and (dd)].

So, the Board would address the complicated pin cushion corners in the same manner as it would any other matter brought before it.

I'd say with the recent rain that the river will flow once again ;-)

Keithwill · Post by **Keithwill** » Wed Dec 03, 2014 3:13 pm

I was involved as an expert witness in a case that came before a State Board on Surveying and it charged my client with 12 counts of not properly surveying (in so many words) at a tremendous cost to my client.

He appealed to the local Court and the charges against him were thrown out, consequently the Board spent a tremendous amont of money and solved nothing, except costing my client a lot of money.

The effort could have been better spent on actually defining some survey rules in accordance with the State's laws and requirements.

The bottom line to the argument that was brought before the Board was the fact that he was not surveying in accordance with the concept expressed in the Robillard/Bouman book.

The argument is really about either surveying in accordance with the Robillard/Bouman expressed opinions or in accordance with the BLM Manual of Surveying Instructions. They are not the same!

My opinion of course!

David Kendall · Post by **David Kendall** » Wed Dec 03, 2014 3:24 pm

This conversation seems to me to be falling into the category of "unheralded aspects" of CLSA forum participation...

JMS8070 · Post by **JMS8070** » Wed Dec 03, 2014 3:54 pm

E_Page wrote: Where's that darn sarcasm font when you need it?

I actually have a sarcasm font. I would attach it if the file type was allowed. It is basically italics but leaning in the opposite direction.

(off topic but I thought I would share) =-)

bruce hall · Post by **bruce hall** » Wed Dec 03, 2014 8:35 pm

that put a smile on my face also.

thanks,

Gary Schenk · Post by **Gary Schenk** » Wed Dec 03, 2014 8:36 pm

So, did Mr. Hughey ever get to tell his side of the story? Why not? After all, the so-called legal expert who called him out seemed ignorant of law himself.

I have noticed that there is a certain subset of surveyors who think every surveyor but themselves is a freaking idiot. Why's that?

Keithwill · Post by **Keithwill** » Wed Dec 03, 2014 8:52 pm

I happen to think that a surveyor who sets a new monument next to an existing monument is a freaking idiot!

Keithwill · Post by **Keithwill** » Wed Dec 03, 2014 9:08 pm

and of course some special name for those who advocate making an existing monument a "witmess corner" to the "true" corner position that is a finger length distant away.

PLS7393 · Post by **PLS7393** » Thu Dec 04, 2014 10:07 am

Keithwill wrote:I happen to think that a surveyor who sets a new monument next to an existing monument is a freaking idiot!

That seems a little harsh, if the second surveyor performed a survey using controlling monuments that were not used previously.

What is the distance of your "new monument"? Are you talking hundredths or feet? If hundredths, yes it is redundant, but . . . Pin Cushion monuments are a surveyor's ego, that's all.

Yes I have seen a pin cushion with iron pipes several feet apart.

PLS7393 · Post by **PLS7393** » Thu Dec 04, 2014 10:10 am

I forgot to mention I enjoyed the original post (article) as well as Evan's perspective, lol.

Now that we have traversed down another road (high jacked thread), back to our originally scheduled program, carry on!!!

Keithwill · Post by **Keithwill** » Thu Dec 04, 2014 1:04 pm

Would somebody state the rationale for setting a new monument within inches of an existing monument?

More questions that are in concept with this thread. What constitutes an "original surveyor" as opposed to a "first surveyor"? I get the idea that only government surveyors can be the "original surveyor" in the PLSS? Why can't private surveyors be an "original surveyor"....or can they?

We won't go into the concept as expressed by Robillard?Bouman, that only the protracted center lines of a PLSS section can be used for evidence in subdividing a PLSS section. Different discussion.

Keithwill · Post by **Keithwill** » Thu Dec 04, 2014 1:07 pm

If only measurements are used for evidence, creating a pin cushion, with a new monument within inches of an existing monument, then this is simply a measuring profession by technicians.

OK?

Keithwill · Post by **Keithwill** » Thu Dec 04, 2014 1:19 pm

The discussion above is about senior lines and junior lines and the intent seems to be that a junior corner cannot bend a senior line!

Now as an example to think about; back in my day in the field with BLM, resurveying boundaries of Public Land, I set hundreds of 1/16 sec. corner monuments and hundreds of interior section line monuments and I know damned well that the measurements were not close to the measurements that are being discussed in today's survey world........so, would my corner monuments be held in place without gross error or fraud?

Remember, the reason that I was setting a 1/16 sec. cor., was to determine the boundary between Federal and Private lands and of course were junior corners.

Do you now in retracing my lines, do you accept my 1/16 sec. cors?

I have read opinions whereby, no junior corner monument was acceptable if it was not exactly on the senior line. Rationale for this opinion would be welcome.

dewardkb · Post by **dewardkb** » Thu Dec 04, 2014 2:14 pm

http://c.ymcdn.com/sites/www.azpls.org/ ... rincip.pdf

"Lines once drawn on the ground, are perpetually fixed in position by their original
monuments/calls notwithstanding imprecision in their placement or description
(ORIGINAL MONUMENTS, IN A UNDISTURBED STATE ARE NEVER WRONG,
AND CONTROL THE LINES)"

Keithwill · Post by **Keithwill** » Fri Dec 05, 2014 4:12 pm

Is there a problem with talking about junior corners on senior lines?

Seems to be!

dewardkb · Post by **dewardkb** » Fri Dec 05, 2014 7:50 pm

In Mr. Lucas's editorial "Courthouse Research&How Much Is Enough?" [May 2003] he states, "I believe that there are circumstances where a surveyor can do a professionally competent boundary survey from a deed faxed to him by a real estate agent&." Really? Sounds like a good way to lose your license.
Doug Morin, LS

Los Osos, California

http://archives.profsurv.com/magazine/a ... spx?i=1100

Ric7308 · Post by **Ric7308** » Fri Dec 05, 2014 9:42 pm

Dewardkb, why are you making such an effort to try and discredit Lucas (or any other writer) who has simply voiced their opinion? I'm not defending Lucas or you but what's the point of all this? Both of you have the right to share your opinions on a subject and both of you have a right to disagree with the other. Either one of you can keep doing this but it doesn't mean land surveyors will just simply believe what you say as being the almighty correct solution.

Give it a rest. Get involved in discussions that are professional and meaningful. Then we all benefit from it.

dewardkb · Post by **dewardkb** » Sat Dec 06, 2014 3:07 am

9/11/2007 Jeffery N. Lucas, as CLSA speaker?
http://clsaforum.californiasurveyors.or ... php?t=1918
"When this judgement became public knowledge, I had recently completed a Record of Survey that was similar in issue, a few miles up the freeway from this area and it caused some anxiety on my part regarding my recorded opinion. I proceeded to go back and review my previous work. Then I realized that I felt that I based my opinion on time-proven principles and practice...and I attempted to represent to my client, and all other parties involved, a proper application of land surveying. And I hope, by means of my map and reports, that I left them with a perception as close to the true reality of the situation as I could professionally attain.

So, to all land surveyors, recently licensed or more experienced, I suggest that we all study this case and assimilate it into the experience, skills and knowledge we have all obtained and retain the lessons learned from this case so that it will make us all more informed and sucessful land surveyors.

My 2 cents worth...
Ric"

California Surveyors Forums

Chain!

NO! NO! NO!

Well if that's the case

Evan: