Illegal aliens can now get prof licenses.

land butcher · Post by **land butcher** » Thu Oct 02, 2014 9:43 am

http://http://thinkprogress.org/immigration/2014/10/02/3574941/undocumented-professional-licenses-california/

With this law I am assuming that no applicant for a LS or PE or...... needs to provide proof of citizenship or right to work in the USA.

Ric7308 · Post by **Ric7308** » Thu Oct 02, 2014 9:52 am

By state law, we require all applicants to provide either a SSN or an ITIN or we re unable to accept the application and this has been in place for quite a few years. It is the responsibility of those agencies that issue the SSN or ITIN to determine appropriate status, not BPELSG.

Laws governing BPELSG do not require residency in California and to my knowledge have not for many years, if at all.

Dave Karoly, PLS · Post by **Dave Karoly, PLS** » Thu Oct 02, 2014 11:53 am

OH MY GOSH!

THE SKY IS FALLING!

land butcher · Post by **land butcher** » Thu Oct 02, 2014 1:15 pm

Ric
How can a board state it's purpose is to protect the public when it allows persons who are in this Country illegally to hold a professional license?

How will the Board handle it when a person here illegally and not legally allowed to work here submits a application showing work experience in the USA?

Dave - I ignore those who prefer to remain naive.

land butcher · Post by **land butcher** » Thu Oct 02, 2014 1:24 pm

How is it that the licensing procedure, that was intended from the outset to "protect the public", can accomplish the task of protecting anyone when licenses are issued that serve no purpose other than to work? I can back this up with documentation as well, from your State Franchise Tax Board. The Franchise Tax Board made a "Demand for Payment" under the incorrect assumption that I held a professional license and NO OTHER INFORMATION WHATSOEVER. So your own agencies automatically presume, and determine, and attempt to collect taxes on "income" from the sole possession of a professional license, and yet it is not legal for people you've demanded have access to said licenses to work here.

7702 · Post by **7702** » Thu Oct 02, 2014 4:20 pm

I wonder if the future licensees who take advantage of this new law will be more likely than other "documented" surveyors to accept "undocumented" monumentation? The potential for bias such as this could seriously undermine our standards of practice! : )

Dave Karoly, PLS · Post by **Dave Karoly, PLS** » Thu Oct 02, 2014 4:47 pm

If we defund government then who will keep the marauding aliens out?

Some Libertarians feel that immigration laws are illigitamate.

In fact the U.S. Had no immigration statutes until the 1880s or so. The Declaration of Independence complains the King wouldn't let immigrants in. I think immigrants are a great investment, especially young ones. Immigrants built this country. They don't scare me at all.

btaylor · Post by **btaylor** » Thu Oct 02, 2014 8:56 pm

I am going to file this one under "I have better things to worry about"

Ric7308 · Post by **Ric7308** » Fri Oct 03, 2014 7:26 am

land butcher wrote:Ric
How can a board state it's purpose is to protect the public when it allows persons who are in this Country illegally to hold a professional license?

Where does it say that only USA citizens are "public"?

How will the Board handle it when a person here illegally and not legally allowed to work here submits a application showing work experience in the USA?

BPELSG does not care where the work is performed as long as the experience is under an individual in responsible charge and appropriately licensed in the jurisdiction where the experience was gained.

Ric7308 · Post by **Ric7308** » Fri Oct 03, 2014 7:39 am

land butcher wrote:How is it that the licensing procedure, that was intended from the outset to "protect the public", can accomplish the task of protecting anyone when licenses are issued that serve no purpose other than to work?

Staying in context with your line of thinking, isn't that why your license was issued to you, so you can work?

Licenses are a way to communicate to the consumer, of those services, that the license holder has met certain requirements that demonstrate competence. Competence is not limited by jurisdictional boundaries.

I can back this up with documentation as well, from your State Franchise Tax Board. The Franchise Tax Board made a "Demand for Payment" under the incorrect assumption that I held a professional license and NO OTHER INFORMATION WHATSOEVER. So your own agencies automatically presume, and determine, and attempt to collect taxes on "income" from the sole possession of a professional license, and yet it is not legal for people you've demanded have access to said licenses to work here.

Interesting that you've been subjected to this effort by the FTB. It is BPELSG's understanding that the FTB targeted individuals holding California licenses that were located out of state (and yes, other countries are out of state). BPELSG has fought repeatedly with FTB on these issues explaining that just because a licensee living in (for discussion's sake) Texas (because after all, isn't that really another country) and also holding a license in California doesn't mean that this individual has actually performed any work within the boundaries of California and would be subject to state taxes.

So if it makes you feel any better, there are many, many, many California licensees with an address of record out of state that have had to deal with FTB and this topic has nothing to do with the original topic of this thread.

Ric7308 · Post by **Ric7308** » Fri Oct 03, 2014 7:46 am

One additional point and one that is being missed here...

I can tell you that most of us reading this thread applied and were licensed by BPELSG under these exact same requirements ALREADY. Can't say for sure that landbutcher was, but I also can't say for sure that SSN's were around when he applied. :)

Point is this is nothing new for BPELSG

land butcher · Post by **land butcher** » Fri Oct 03, 2014 10:52 am

The test I took was on stone tablets.

If we defund government then who will keep the marauding aliens out?

As it is today they are only kept out on the Canadian border and fined $5000 not the mexican border. So I assume you accept 50% efficiency as sufficient.

Immigrants built this country. They don't scare me at all.

I have no problem with immigrants I am sure all of us have ancestors from outside the USA, exc for the American Indian which the immigrants put the screws to, my wife is a immigrant - required 6 months of paperwork and in 2years she became a citizen of the USA not a dual citizen. What I have a problem with persons that have entered this country illegally.
Another thing most forget is the the immigrants of prior to the 1960s had to work to survive, now the govt gives them money for everything including cell phones.
One of my best friends is 3rd gen Chinese, my past employees include a Irish mexican, Iranian, 3rd gen mexican who only speaks english, all of which did not refer to themselves as hyphenated Americans, a woman and a couple of anglos that fried their brains doing drugs in HS. I am 4th or 5th gen western european heinz 57.

BPELSG does not care where the work is performed as long as the experience is under an individual in responsible charge and appropriately licensed in the jurisdiction where the experience was gained.

So the board will accept work experience done by a person not legally allowed to work in the USA.

Since when is a LSIT or a EIT a license to work as a professional. This situation will be presented at another time in depth.

If a LS legally allowed to work in the USA subcontracts to a LS without a work permit and the work done by the undocumented LS is such that the client sues who is liable?

land butcher · Post by **land butcher** » Fri Oct 03, 2014 10:54 am

I wonder if the future licensees who take advantage of this new law will be more likely than other "documented" surveyors to accept "undocumented" monumentation? The potential for bias such as this could seriously undermine our standards of practice! : )

:) :) :)

Three smiley faces as this program requires a min number of letters.

land butcher · Post by **land butcher** » Fri Oct 03, 2014 12:22 pm

Another question
You hire a LS to do contract work for you. What happens when you pay this person when he/she cannot legally work in the USA?

David Anaya · Post by **David Anaya** » Fri Oct 03, 2014 12:34 pm

I assume check cash or money order would do?

Ric7308 · Post by **Ric7308** » Fri Oct 03, 2014 12:40 pm

NCEES administers engineering / surveying examinations in 7 countries other than the US or US Territories twice a year and they constantly receive requests from many other countries to consider.

Many states are repealing their residency requirements for licensure.

South Korea has a little over 100,000 graduates of engineering universities annually. India is closer to 140,000 engineering graduates annually.

And this is just the engineering and surveying numbers that I am aware of. Can't speak for all the other licensed professions.

Landbutcher, just some more information for you to think about when you wake up screaming in a cold sweat at night.

Dave Karoly, PLS · Post by **Dave Karoly, PLS** » Fri Oct 03, 2014 3:58 pm

Even the Chinese and Hadrian had to pay (e.g. funds) to staff their respective walls.

It seems to me Land Butcher's goal of defunding government is at odds with enforcing immigration statutes.

A statute which regulates the behavior of individuals seems to be at odds with right wing dislike of government regulation.

LS_8750 · Post by **LS_8750** » Fri Oct 03, 2014 4:08 pm

Well, this should settle it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_61hzuGGJX0

California Surveyors Forums

Illegal aliens can now get prof licenses.

Illegal aliens can now get prof licenses.

This new legislation does not change BPELSG's current processes or requirements

Undocumented, anyone?