"Plain Language" in legal descriptions?

Peter Ehlert · Post by **Peter Ehlert** » Fri Mar 23, 2012 9:41 am

Back in the early 80's I worked for Bob Curtis, LS3216. I quickly discovered that he always used Then rather than Thence... works for me, but I never adopted it.
BTW: He never asked me to replace Thence in the legales, but would comment with a smile. A good guy... and one of my best mentors.

If it is clear and does not create ambiguity, why not? ... it is all about clear communication.

D Ryan · Post by **D Ryan** » Fri Mar 23, 2012 11:13 am

I've always thought we should limit our words in our descriptions to only those needed to clearly communicate the intent, but ensure sufficient words are used to eliminate ambiguities. As Wattles advised, "be clear, yet concise".

I once considered replacing Thence with Then but found the two are not necessarily synonymous, so never did that.

Said has a specific place in descriptions and should be used when appropriate but not used if it's just fluff. For instance, "...as shown on said Parcel Map" refers to the most recently cited parcel map within the description and precludes the need to cite the entire Book/Page etc. again. But don't use it if it serves no purposes.

Unless there's someone in the legal department who's more of an expert at writing legal descriptions than you (and they're a licensed land surveyor) I'm not sure they have any place advising you in how to prepare them.

Dave Ryan,
Humboldt County, Ca.

Dave Karoly, PLS · Post by **Dave Karoly, PLS** » Fri Mar 30, 2012 9:14 am

I have been attempting to limit the use of "said" because it often seems unnecessary. "Thence" can be limited by numbering courses:

Thence the following six (6) courses and distances:
1. North 45Â° 45' 45" East 128.99 feet;
2. [etc].

Some people put "a distance of" between the bearing and distance but I don't favor except in cases where it clarifies the description.

RAM · Post by **RAM** » Fri Mar 30, 2012 5:30 pm

as a habit I use "a distance of" in the courses from the commencement to the pob, then use "for xx feet" in the courses of the boundary, just a style thing and from the old guy that taught me. for me the biggest thing is to clearly communicate my intent.

Dave Karoly, PLS · Post by **Dave Karoly, PLS** » Fri Mar 30, 2012 6:05 pm

I use it when describing along a line, "thence North 45Â°45'45" East along the north line of Chaos Acres a distance of 445.45 feet;"

Lee Hixson · Post by **Lee Hixson** » Mon Apr 02, 2012 5:20 am

I think "said" is one of the most useful tools around. Used correctly, it, more than any other practice, contributes to the goal of brevity and clarity.

E_Page · Post by **E_Page** » Mon Apr 02, 2012 9:47 am

I agree with Lee. The key being "when used correctly".

When I think of plain language, I think of getting rid of some of the stilted pseudo-legalese some tend to put into land descriptions when more common (and often fewer) words would suffice to say the same thing.

The "plain language" movement/iniative/whatever has had more effect on the other portions of legal documents than it has on land descriptions.

Take for instance one that most, if not all of us are familiar with: "Know all ye men by these presents..."

How many deeds have you seen that start this way? Dozens? Hundreds? What the heck does it mean?! I've never figured it out. It just seems like one of those things lawyers have just come to think was a necessary phrase to start the document out with.

I'd be willing to bet that the plain language push came about because some in the legal profession who managed to hold on to good sense through and after law school (there's a few, I've met some) asked themselves "What the heck does this mean?" or "Why do they say that with 12 words that no one ever uses when they could have said it clearer in six words?" I think it goes back to a time when the value of an attorney's services was measured by the length of the document's one generated.

I think a lot of the phraseology that lawyers had hel onto, and much of what some surveyors hold onto is just that there are particular words that their mentors used, so they think that those words must be used for the description to have effect.

Reminds me of the story of the ham. for those of you who don't know it:

A young couple was beginning to cook sunday dinner. As the husband was opening a can of yams, he watched his wife cut off the ends of the ham before putting it in the roasting pan and into the oven. He had noticed his wife follow this same procedure each time they had ham for dinner, and thinking that it was some family secret to bring out more flavor or something asked "Why do you cut the ends off the ham?"

The wife thought for a minute and then said "That's just what you do when you cook a ham. That's what Mom always did?". To which the husband replied "Seems kind of silly to me, but coming form your mother...", and then he was sent off to McDonald's while his wife and the family dog enjoyed ham dinner.

But the young wife thought about it some more and called her mother. "Mom, why do you always cut the ends of the ham before cooking it?" Mom said "That's how your grandmother showed me to cook it. Her hams alsways turned out wonderfully, so it must be important to cut the ends off."

The young wife thought that sounded OK, but wasn't quite satisfied. The next time she had occasion to call grandma, she asked "Grandma, I was cooking a ham a few days ago and wondered, what's the purpose of cutting the ends off before cooking it? I asked Mom, and she said that you taught her to do that. so what's the secret, Grandma?"

And so Grandma revealed the family secret. "When your grandpa and I were first married, I only had one roasting pan and it was only big enough for a chicken. As you know, we didn't have a lot of money, so that pan was the only roasing pan I had until after your mother moved out. It wasn't big enough to hold a ham unless I cut the ends off."

Two weeks later, the young couple was having ham for dinner again. The wife, not wanting to give her husband the satisfaction of thinking that he asked a reasonable question, cut the ends off the ham before cooking it.

The husband, opening a can of yams, kept his mouth shut and enjoyed a peaceful ham dinner with his wife.

So, do you use words or phrases like "situate within" instead of "located in" - does anyone know what "situate" says that "located" does not say. Does anyone ever use the phrased "situate in" or "situated in" other than in a land description?

Or perhaps "the heretofore described" instead of "said". Or one of my favorites: "that certain map entitled" instead of "the map titled". First of all, if you identifiy the map by title and recording info, does prefacing it with "that certain" make it any more certain than it otherwise is? Second of all, the map has a title but it is entitled to nothing that I am aware of. Does a map have rights? What is it entitled to? Perhaps it is entitled to a comfortable and permanent home in the County Recorder's office and entitled to be recognized for conveyances of parcels within it and by surveys performed within the lands depicted upon it. Yeah, that must be it. Maybe it is entitled, but for the purposes of identifying it in a description, it is titled.

David Lanphear · Post by **David Lanphear** » Mon Apr 02, 2012 6:30 pm

I don't know Evan,

1. To give a name or title to.

this seems to be the number 1 definition of the online dictionaries I saw when I googled "entitle"

No. 2 is your version.

So it seems to me to be a valid use of the word.

MFORD · Post by **MFORD** » Tue Apr 03, 2012 1:07 am

Can't sleep. Looking for a sleep aid. This thread almost did it. The following link was the last nail in the coffin. Fade to black.

http://www.dailywritingtips.com/titled-versus-entitled/

Jim Frame · Post by **Jim Frame** » Tue Apr 03, 2012 6:15 am

"Know all ye men by these presents..." What the heck does it mean?!

I've always assumed that this is a throwback to a time when formal writings were basically replacements for verbal announcements by a government official, like a town crier. "Know all ye men" would be akin to saying, "Listen up, everyone, you're responsible for knowing the following," the "presents" being the facts subsequently presented.

.

E_Page · Post by **E_Page** » Tue Apr 03, 2012 11:09 am

David,

Maybe so, but it just bugs me! Besides, the folks at DailyWritingTips (found by Mike between bouts of insomnia) agrees with me. So that settles it!

Mike,

You say the topic bores you, yet you had enough interest to read, respond, and even to look up a useful link. Thanks.

Jim,

Yep, a throwback that has become obsolete for modern usage. That's the purpose of plain language, to weed out throwback content that no longer serves a useful purpose in legal documents.

Louie,

Thanks. Glad to hear when someone finds my comments useful.