Another ROS reqired? question

[TIB]

I am surveying a parcel. It has 4 corners/sides. The parcel is "shown" on an existing ROS. 2 corners are monumented. The line between them has a bearing and distance indicated, the other 3 sides do not. The other 3 sides are "shown" (drafted) but do not have any bearings/distance indicated.
Please advise: Corner Record or Record of Survey?
Thanks
TIB

[MikeTurnrose]

I think you're going to have to file an ROS. I have had this come up before. If the line(s) are shown but not dimensioned, I think that triggers the ROS.

[pls7809]

8762 (b)(4) The establishment of one or more points or lines not shown on any subdivision map, official map, or record of survey, the positions of which are not ascertainable from an inspection of the subdivision map, official map, or record of survey.

My comment - per that sub-section, the position of the lines in question of your survey must be ascertainable from a Sub Map, OM or RS, so if you can determine that line from the information shown on the RS you are looking at, then a CR shoud suffice, otherwise an RS is required, IMO.

[rpost]

as·cer·tain (sr-tn)
tr.v. as·cer·tained, as·cer·tain·ing, as·cer·tains
1. To discover with certainty, as through examination or experimentation.

Can you scale it? "experimentation?"

[Stephen Johnson]

I agree with Mike and I think I agree with Ryan. Ryan's answer is somewhat convoluted.

A ROS is going to be required.

[pls7809]

I'll clear it up - I believe that an RS is required.

[E_Page]

The 3 lines on the old RS are not dimensioned. That tells me, whether they are drawn in CAD to scale or not, that those lines were not resolved in that survey with certainty and are shown merely for graphical reference.

RS.

[Ric7308]

Not trying to hijack TIB's original question...

but can anyone provide a valid situation where property lines shown on previous maps as not dimensioned would not require a Record of Survey?

[Stephen Johnson]

I'll clear it up - I believe that an RS is required.

That is what I thought you meant.

[Lee Hixson]

Not trying to hijack TIB's original question...but can anyone provide a valid situation where property lines shown on previous maps as not dimensioned would not require a Record of Survey?

The only possibility I can come up with is, let's say, a RofS is filed for Lot A, being part of a block in an old subdivision. The entire block boundary is resolved, showing bearings and distances along each of the 4 street frontages. The line running through the center of the block is also resolved, showing an overall bearing and distance. Assume that the lack of monuments inside the block caused all the lot widths to be prorated.

Lot A is in the middle of the block, fully annotated. Next to it is Lot B. The common line between A and B is annotated, of course. The front and rear widths of B can be calculated, proportionately, just like for Lot A. The "other" side P/L of Lot B has no bearing or distance but it can be calculated.

Corner Record should be sufficient for a future monumentation of Lot B, right?

[cals6406]

I have seen Official Maps where "Standard City Blocks" have no dimensions.

Possibly here you could file a corner record.

[Lee Hixson]

(Forget that example--didn't think it out enough before posting.)

[rpost]

San Diego has numerous maps recorded that have no bearings, distances or any other hard dimensions shown. Yes, they are all generally very old. I do not believe when retracing and old lot shown on one of these maps a Record of Survey would be required. Actually, if your survey didn't set any monuments no Corner Record would be required either.

My question would be "If there are bearings and distances shown on your map and certain lines are shown without, would those non dimensioned lines require a Record of Survey?"

Scenario 1: Yes. The lines shown are for graphical purposes only and are not considered "ascertainable".

Scenario 2: "Ascertainable" as written in the PLS Act is a bit vague and therefore could be recognized as shown on the map. No Record of Survey would be required.

I do several ALTA Surveys where the client is not interested in monuments being set. My question when giving a price to the client is always, does this ALTA require a Record of Survey? Since my clients are normally not concerned with monuments being set, the defining factor is whether or not all of the lines are shown on other recorded maps.

[E_Page]

To answer Ric’s question, two valid solutions is the establishment of lines by the Bureau of Land Management. Reference: Business and Professions Code, Section 8765 (b) or made by a public officer in his or her official capacity, Section 8765 (a).

Private surveyors, surveying private land, do not have exceptions. Private surveyors contracted by the BLM, exempt? I say no.


DWoolley

The Public Officer Exemption of §8765(a) is not exactly a free ride for the public officers. If one reads that section carefully, you see that public officers, if encountering a §8762 trigger, are still required to file a map which is an RS in every way except that it is not filed with the Recorder and so lacks a Recorder's Statement.

I think that there is a common misconception (as much among public officers as among others) that the exemption is an exemption from having to prepare a map.

I agree with you, Dave regarding the private surveyors contracted to do BLM work. BLM surveyors are exempt because they are not subject to the licensing laws of individual states as long as they are surveying only unpatented federal land. private surveyors are fully subject to the licensing laws and there is no exemption for the private surveyor that is dependent upon the nature of the title of the land or dependent upon who or what the surveyor's client is.


Possible answer to Ric's question: Performing an LLA between lots of an existing subdivision where the line is being moved to coincide with a sideline of an easement which is centered on the original lot line. said easement not being directly dimensioned on the map, but which has a standard width per a note on the title sheet or elsewhere on the map sheet of the subdivision.

If I think really hard, I can come up with other situations where a line may not be directly dimensioned, but its location can be definitively ascertained per indirect dimensions or based upon information contained in notes elsewhere on the map. But I'm tired and I don't want to think that hard.

In cases where there is not sufficient information to definitively locate the lines or points relative to other dimensioned lines, no. If you have to break out a scale (or list a line, or snap to endpoints in CAD), then the representation is merely graphical and the preparer of the map has not made any statement as to the definitive location of the points or lines.