I was hired to do a survey. It consisted of retracing an old ROS and setting a few new corners following a recorded LLA. I had an agreement (contract) with the client to locate and verify the old corners set by the old ROS, replace any that may be missing, set new corners to monument the LLA, then file an ROS of my work.
I found all but 2 of the old corners in good shape. I replaced the 2 missing ones and set 3 new corners per the LLA. Everything fit OK. Basic stuff.
The client agreed to meet me on site to pay me after showing him the corners of his land.
The client was unhappy with the location of the new corners that I set. They were not where he expected or hoped they would be..
The client then claimed my survey was incorrect and the monuments were placed in the wrong location.
Of course he refused to pay me any money for my "no good survey that set the wrong corners".
Somehow (and proud of myself) I managed to leave without either cursing at, or assaulting this man. I just split the scene.
I intend to return tomorrow to yank out all pipes I set, and leave the old ones as they are.
This is a small job that is probably not worth the fight, and I sure as heck don't intend to file a ROS on my own dime.
What would you do???
I think I will just yank 'em out
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bruce hall
- Posts: 645
- Joined: Sun Oct 05, 2003 9:18 pm
- Location: huntington beach, orange county, california
Well TIB,
I would be hard pressed to do what you propose.
If it was my survey I would be stuck with the following.
I set something in the ground. I established points or lines ON THE GROUND that do not show up on any recorded map. I also told someone what they represented. This survey will come back to bite me one day if I don't file the map. Count on it in big, bold, unattractive words!!!!!!!!!!!
Whether I try to get my money from the landowner, who knows? Maybe, maybe not. But I would not pull the pipes if it were my survey. Who knows, maybe the client will have a change of heart and decide that I should be paid. Or he may not, but at least I am covered. I did what I was supposed to do and got zapped in the process. Oh Well.
What about the adjoiners? What if they saw this stuff that I set? What am I gonna tell them if it gets that far and the pipes don't exist? I don't even want to think about that.
As a side note, I always, always, always get a contract signed and at least half the money up front. I have been burnt once or twice before on lot surveys. Hopefully it won't happen again.
Post Script: I would also give him a sketch or plat of my work as is my custom, so that he has a written record in case he wants to discuss the issue with his neighbors.
If it was my survey I would be stuck with the following.
I set something in the ground. I established points or lines ON THE GROUND that do not show up on any recorded map. I also told someone what they represented. This survey will come back to bite me one day if I don't file the map. Count on it in big, bold, unattractive words!!!!!!!!!!!
Whether I try to get my money from the landowner, who knows? Maybe, maybe not. But I would not pull the pipes if it were my survey. Who knows, maybe the client will have a change of heart and decide that I should be paid. Or he may not, but at least I am covered. I did what I was supposed to do and got zapped in the process. Oh Well.
What about the adjoiners? What if they saw this stuff that I set? What am I gonna tell them if it gets that far and the pipes don't exist? I don't even want to think about that.
As a side note, I always, always, always get a contract signed and at least half the money up front. I have been burnt once or twice before on lot surveys. Hopefully it won't happen again.
Post Script: I would also give him a sketch or plat of my work as is my custom, so that he has a written record in case he wants to discuss the issue with his neighbors.
Bruce Hall Land Surveyor No. 4743
5732 Middlecoff Drive
Huntington Beach, Ca. 92649
714 840 4380
5732 Middlecoff Drive
Huntington Beach, Ca. 92649
714 840 4380
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Jim Frame
- Posts: 1599
- Joined: Thu Oct 17, 2002 8:52 pm
- Location: Davis, CA
- Contact:
Bruce has it right. If you attempt to collect on your contract you might get paid. If you pull your pipes you surely won't get paid, and you leave yourself exposed to sanctions against your license for violating state law.
To me it's a no-brainer. An expensive no-brainer, maybe -- been there, done that, got the ROS -- but a no-brainer nonetheless.
.
To me it's a no-brainer. An expensive no-brainer, maybe -- been there, done that, got the ROS -- but a no-brainer nonetheless.
.
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TIB
- Posts: 160
- Joined: Mon Sep 27, 2010 9:56 pm
pulling pipes-what if?
OK Point taken but...
Let me take this one step further (for fun of course!)
What if?.......
Suppose I get into office, check my calcs, and discover a bust. Pipes are NFG! They are in the wrong spot. Are you suggesting that I don't pull them out? I put them in, why can't I take them out?
Let me take this one step further (for fun of course!)
What if?.......
Suppose I get into office, check my calcs, and discover a bust. Pipes are NFG! They are in the wrong spot. Are you suggesting that I don't pull them out? I put them in, why can't I take them out?
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bruce hall
- Posts: 645
- Joined: Sun Oct 05, 2003 9:18 pm
- Location: huntington beach, orange county, california
Well, I tell ya what.
If I set these pipes in the wrong place, then i would go back and put them in the correct position. By doing so, maybe the landowner likes the "new" positions, and I get my money. Hurray!!!!!
If he doesn't, then oh well again.
Also, by setting the pipes in the "wrong" position and then putting them in the correct position, my survey has disclosed an "alternate" position. This is a stretch, but I have personally seen an administrative law judge take exactly this same stance. Don't go there TIB.
Granted it is not an alternate position shown on any record map, but for crying out loud, I should know what I am doing before I put stuff in the ground.
Again, Don't go there TIB. It really isn't worth it. And if I did put them in the wrong place, I didn't perform the job that I was contracted to perform.
So what good am I? Do I really deserve my fee?
If he doesn't, then oh well again.
Also, by setting the pipes in the "wrong" position and then putting them in the correct position, my survey has disclosed an "alternate" position. This is a stretch, but I have personally seen an administrative law judge take exactly this same stance. Don't go there TIB.
Granted it is not an alternate position shown on any record map, but for crying out loud, I should know what I am doing before I put stuff in the ground.
Again, Don't go there TIB. It really isn't worth it. And if I did put them in the wrong place, I didn't perform the job that I was contracted to perform.
So what good am I? Do I really deserve my fee?
Bruce Hall Land Surveyor No. 4743
5732 Middlecoff Drive
Huntington Beach, Ca. 92649
714 840 4380
5732 Middlecoff Drive
Huntington Beach, Ca. 92649
714 840 4380
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Jim Frame
- Posts: 1599
- Joined: Thu Oct 17, 2002 8:52 pm
- Location: Davis, CA
- Contact:
"I put them in, why can't I take them out?"
It's all about establishment and reliance. Once you establish the positions on the ground and they're seen by a party not under your direct control, the public -- including your client -- has a right to rely upon them as being substantially correct. This is true even if you mistakenly set them in the wrong locations.
Moving a monument from an incorrect location to a correct location isn't the same as removing one altogether. The former is a legitimate action taken to prevent harm to the public; the latter is an attempt to deprive the public of a benefit you are obligated to provide as a condition of licensure.
.
It's all about establishment and reliance. Once you establish the positions on the ground and they're seen by a party not under your direct control, the public -- including your client -- has a right to rely upon them as being substantially correct. This is true even if you mistakenly set them in the wrong locations.
Moving a monument from an incorrect location to a correct location isn't the same as removing one altogether. The former is a legitimate action taken to prevent harm to the public; the latter is an attempt to deprive the public of a benefit you are obligated to provide as a condition of licensure.
.
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TIB
- Posts: 160
- Joined: Mon Sep 27, 2010 9:56 pm
The monuments were ok
The monuments were OK. NO error. The second point (about having a bust) was just for the sake of discussion. (yes, really) My real issue is with the dirt bag non-paying client. I'm talking about pulling the pipes the next day.
No one else has seen them or know that they exist, and there certainly has been no use or reliance on them in one day.
To prepare and file a ROS at my own cost would be even a bigger hurt for me.
I'm poor these days and I already have had to absorb the cost of the survey so far. The client is not going to pay. Since I do have a contract, I'm sure I would win if I took him to small claims court. But for that same reason, I think it's unlikely that he will make an issue out of me pulling my pipes, and and not filing a ROS. If he did, he would be forced to pay up, and he doesn't like or agree with their location any way. He probably doesn't want an "official map" that shows his corners to be in a spot where he doesn't want them to be.
It just seems like it's not worth all the fight and headache for a few thousand dollar job. Either way, it sux.
All I can do is chalk up another lesson learned, the hard way.
Thanks for all your opinions and input.
TIB
No one else has seen them or know that they exist, and there certainly has been no use or reliance on them in one day.
To prepare and file a ROS at my own cost would be even a bigger hurt for me.
I'm poor these days and I already have had to absorb the cost of the survey so far. The client is not going to pay. Since I do have a contract, I'm sure I would win if I took him to small claims court. But for that same reason, I think it's unlikely that he will make an issue out of me pulling my pipes, and and not filing a ROS. If he did, he would be forced to pay up, and he doesn't like or agree with their location any way. He probably doesn't want an "official map" that shows his corners to be in a spot where he doesn't want them to be.
It just seems like it's not worth all the fight and headache for a few thousand dollar job. Either way, it sux.
All I can do is chalk up another lesson learned, the hard way.
Thanks for all your opinions and input.
TIB
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Surveyor826
- Posts: 40
- Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2009 4:59 pm
- Location: Golden State
I would NEVER pull pipes I had set!
And I certainly wouldn't say I was going to on a Surveyor's board.
This could haunt you.
Best Wishes,
This could haunt you.
Best Wishes,
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Ric7308
- Posts: 719
- Joined: Thu Nov 17, 2005 2:50 pm
TIB,
All who have responded can sympathize with your situation and I would suggest that you seriously consider the valuable advice that was offered by your peers.
By your own words, you have an executed contract with the client, which is intended to protect all parties involved, and again by your admission have provided a sound and accurate survey. Trust your judgment and all the options you have legally to finalize your obligations. The path you are considering is not really a valid option and should be excluded from your thinking.
By not completing your services as contracted for and proceeding in this new direction may undermine your credability in regards to obtaining a successful resolution to the issue. Some involved may perceive those actions as breach of contract on your part...something else to consider as you review how your contract binds your actions as well.
Question: Is your client one of the parties that sought for and obtained the LLA? If not, there may be a reason why your client has a difference of opinion regarding the location of that line. Maybe someone else communicated a different location (realtor, previous seller, etc.) and your client does not realize how a documented survey accurately reflecting the recorded document can help him/her resolve the impending dispute.
Give this very careful consideration.
Ric
All who have responded can sympathize with your situation and I would suggest that you seriously consider the valuable advice that was offered by your peers.
By your own words, you have an executed contract with the client, which is intended to protect all parties involved, and again by your admission have provided a sound and accurate survey. Trust your judgment and all the options you have legally to finalize your obligations. The path you are considering is not really a valid option and should be excluded from your thinking.
By not completing your services as contracted for and proceeding in this new direction may undermine your credability in regards to obtaining a successful resolution to the issue. Some involved may perceive those actions as breach of contract on your part...something else to consider as you review how your contract binds your actions as well.
Question: Is your client one of the parties that sought for and obtained the LLA? If not, there may be a reason why your client has a difference of opinion regarding the location of that line. Maybe someone else communicated a different location (realtor, previous seller, etc.) and your client does not realize how a documented survey accurately reflecting the recorded document can help him/her resolve the impending dispute.
Give this very careful consideration.
Ric
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land butcher
- Posts: 1615
- Joined: Fri Jul 26, 2002 7:26 pm
- Location: calif
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LS_8750
- Posts: 1166
- Joined: Tue Jul 20, 2010 5:36 pm
- Location: Sonoma
- Contact:
TIB,
Similar thing happened to me in 09. Turned out we filed the map and about a month later received a call from a neighbor and got about $25k worth of additional work in the area.
Cheers.
Similar thing happened to me in 09. Turned out we filed the map and about a month later received a call from a neighbor and got about $25k worth of additional work in the area.
Cheers.
Clark E. Stoner, PE, PLS
Bear Flag Engineering, Inc.
Sonoma County
Santa Cruz County
tel. 707.996.8449 (Sonoma) or 831.477.9215 (Santa Cruz)
clark@bearflagcivil.com
Bear Flag Engineering, Inc.
Sonoma County
Santa Cruz County
tel. 707.996.8449 (Sonoma) or 831.477.9215 (Santa Cruz)
clark@bearflagcivil.com
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TIB
- Posts: 160
- Joined: Mon Sep 27, 2010 9:56 pm
OK ALLRIGHT I HEAR YA
It would be silly of me to ask for opinions and advice and not take them to heart. Especially since all replies are the same- leave the pipes alone and file the ROS.
I admit that it was not what I was hoping to hear, but I'm now more convinced that it is the right thing to do. I will file the ROS as suggested.
Preparing and drafting the ROS isn't that big of a deal, (I need the ACAD practice anyway), it's the $500 fee to the County that is really gonna hurt.
I didn't want to bother with courts or lawsuits. Lost time and wages is one thing, I can deal with that, but when that $500 bill leaves my almost empty bank account and goes to the County to file the ROS, I'm gonna be really angry. I hold a grudge when getting screwed out of my money.
Since going to jail for beating his brains out isn't a real smart choice, I'm going to have to sue his a$$. I have never had to do this before.
Is there any advice or insight on the best process or procedure to follow in order to (legally) recover my fee per the contract? (no lawyers, I can't afford them).
Thanks to all for the timely tips, I was going to go back to the site tomorrow to yank'em out, but now I guess I'll instead get started drafting the ROS.
TIB
I admit that it was not what I was hoping to hear, but I'm now more convinced that it is the right thing to do. I will file the ROS as suggested.
Preparing and drafting the ROS isn't that big of a deal, (I need the ACAD practice anyway), it's the $500 fee to the County that is really gonna hurt.
I didn't want to bother with courts or lawsuits. Lost time and wages is one thing, I can deal with that, but when that $500 bill leaves my almost empty bank account and goes to the County to file the ROS, I'm gonna be really angry. I hold a grudge when getting screwed out of my money.
Since going to jail for beating his brains out isn't a real smart choice, I'm going to have to sue his a$$. I have never had to do this before.
Is there any advice or insight on the best process or procedure to follow in order to (legally) recover my fee per the contract? (no lawyers, I can't afford them).
Thanks to all for the timely tips, I was going to go back to the site tomorrow to yank'em out, but now I guess I'll instead get started drafting the ROS.
TIB
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Jim Frame
- Posts: 1599
- Joined: Thu Oct 17, 2002 8:52 pm
- Location: Davis, CA
- Contact:
Now you're talking.
Dave Woolley put together an excellent synopsis of the small claims process; it can be found here:
http://www.californiasurveyors.org/clsa ... 1315930024
Follow the steps and with most clients you'll be on your way to collecting. A few clients are able to game the system and make themselves judgment proof, but most aren't that slimey. I had the unhappy experience of running into one, but I expect it's a rare occurrence.
.
Dave Woolley put together an excellent synopsis of the small claims process; it can be found here:
http://www.californiasurveyors.org/clsa ... 1315930024
Follow the steps and with most clients you'll be on your way to collecting. A few clients are able to game the system and make themselves judgment proof, but most aren't that slimey. I had the unhappy experience of running into one, but I expect it's a rare occurrence.
.
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Anthony Maffia
- Posts: 530
- Joined: Mon Jan 13, 2003 4:52 pm
- Location: Contra Costa County, CA
TIB said:
> I think it's unlikely that he will make an issue out of me pulling
> my pipes, and and not filing a ROS. If he did, he would be
> forced to pay up
Not! His requirements under contract do not relate to your requirements as a licensed surveyor. The board couldn't care less if you ever got paid. Sad.
My recommendation is sue under small claims. Bring pictures and the original signed contract. Use this as a learning experience. Also, add a clause to your future contracts allowing recovery of collection and court expenses.
PS - It will take you 8 hours work and a few hundred dollars to kick his sorry ass in small claims, after which you can lien his property and the LLA is dead in the water! Sounds like a win!
> I think it's unlikely that he will make an issue out of me pulling
> my pipes, and and not filing a ROS. If he did, he would be
> forced to pay up
Not! His requirements under contract do not relate to your requirements as a licensed surveyor. The board couldn't care less if you ever got paid. Sad.
My recommendation is sue under small claims. Bring pictures and the original signed contract. Use this as a learning experience. Also, add a clause to your future contracts allowing recovery of collection and court expenses.
PS - It will take you 8 hours work and a few hundred dollars to kick his sorry ass in small claims, after which you can lien his property and the LLA is dead in the water! Sounds like a win!
- Anthony Maffia, LSIT