4 Year Degree Requirement for Nevada Reciprocity -- Part II

[LS_8750]

Ok, so I rather ignored this original thread that started more than a year ago, and now it looks like I'm screwed.

I want my NV LS, but apparently I am not qualified.

Lane Garrison from the NV board is telling me I need a BS degree in surveying (NRS 625.270 post 7/1/2010). Period. My ABET accredited BS in Civil Engineering equates to nothing.

Fresno and Pomona each have ABET accredited BS degress Geomatics engineering, essentially within the college of civil engineering and related to the profession of civil engineering.

Nevada has nothing ABET accredited for land surveying/geomatics according to ABET's website. Not even their coveted Great Basin College.


I have some problems with this:

1. Nevada doesn't even offer an ABET accredited 4-year degree in surveying/geomatics engineering within their own state.
2. Boundary related discussion aside, the technical components of surveying fall well within the study of civil engineering. An ABET accredited BS degree in civil engineering should be sufficient as being related to the study of land surveying and should be considered acceptable to the NV Board.
3. So now every CA LS working along the border with NV will be screwed. The NV guys can come over and get their CA LS and work on both sides of the border such as in Tahoe, but we will not be able to do the same. That is an unfair advantage that NV is taking over us in CA.
4. Lane Garrison of the NV Board just told me that he had 3 people sit for the NV LS between Oct. 2010 and April 2011. Really?
5. Screw any mention of minimum education requirements in CA. I can't believe lawyers in Sacramento can do any better than they did in Carson City.

Something needs to be done about this. I don't understand these Boards. I hold a PE in NV and CA. I hold my LS in CA.

Oh, and if I actually did get my BS in Surveying, I would still need to take the LSIT according to the NV Board. Come on.

I think CLSA should point out how CA land surveyors are negatively impacted by this NV Board Regulation and that NV land surveyors will be enjoying an unfair advantage along border regions until something is done about this.

What can we do about this?

[E_Page]

I empathize with your frustration, but I still have to take issue with this statement:

"2. Boundary related discussion aside, the technical components of surveying fall well within the study of civil engineering. An ABET accredited BS degree in civil engineering should be sufficient as being related to the study of land surveying and should be considered acceptable to the NV Board."


The fact that there is so much math involved does not put it within the study of Civil Engineering. The only aspect of surveying that has any real overlap with CE is construction staking.


I'm not sure why they enacted the requirement prior to Gb becoming accredited. That accreditation is probably a ways off at this point. When I spoke to Jim Elithorpe at the conference, he indicated that the economy may put a damper on the school pursuing accredidation for some time. It's an expensive and time consuming process.

Maybe NV has an agreement with OIT and/or other out of state accredited schools to allow NV residents to attend with in-state tuition. OIT had such an agreement with WA when I decided to go back to school and was a WA resident at the time.

[TIB]

so there's not much math involved in engineering, huh. Really?

[E_Page]

Reading comprehension is not one of your strengths, is it TIB?

[rpost]

A civil degree should directly qualify one to take the LS exam in an education based qualification system and vice versa.

[TIB]

Reading comprehension is not one of your strengths, is it TIB?

you are corect mr page, readin' & writin' aint my strengths.
'rithmetic (math) & surveying are

[TIB]

A civil degree should directly qualify one to take the LS exam in an education based qualification system and vice versa.

So no practical field experience should be required; other than maybe one semester of Surveying 101? That's the first time I've heard that on this forum.

[Stan_K]

Nevada (and many other states) does not have a "School of Veterinary Medicine", yet there are Veterinarians in every town. How can this be?

Maybe it is time for the surveying schools to follow the model used by veterinary schools.

Just my $0.02

[Ian Wilson]

Land Surveying is much more akin to the practice of law than it is to the practice of Civil Engineering.

The attached file has been uploaded here many times, but, I think it's worth reading again for many of us.

[PLS7393]

In my opinion, a CA PLS License should allow for reciprocity with NV, but for an individual with no surveying license, a 4 year degree in civil engineering (from a CA ABET acredited school) I feel the schooling portion should count for something, but you would still need to satisfy the NV requirements to sit for the Nevada Land Surveying Exam (references who hold a PLS License) if required.

Not sure if this counts for .02 or only one penny?

[RAM]

Maybe Fresno should rename the major (again), my Fresno State Diploma is titled "Degree of Engineering, Surveying & Photogrammetry", next came "Surveying Engineering", the Title of Geomatrics is most recent. However it is still the same series of courses required to graduate.

Just curious, does Nevada have a School of Law or a School of .....?

[rpost]

Just to clarify my opinion, no state should ever grant licensure to anyone without the proper amount of experience. I actually believe, as it pertains to surveying, that there should be no reduction in experience due to education.

Surveying is very unique in that much traditional learning is necessary to be competent; however, no surveyor is competent without substantial real world experience, the kind that cannot be taught in a college.

My point was merely that if a degree is mandatory for licensure, a civil degree should count as credit, probably not a degree in interior design, but definitely a civil degree.

Unfortunately, in a feeble attempt to over define the professional in the profession, some states have made it mandatory to obtain a degree in surveying prior to licensure. This sounds great, but when I was applying for college out of high school, I didn't actually know what surveying was. I wanted to be an english teacher. It was purely by accident that I found this profession.

[LS_8750]

Ryan, I didn't know what land surveying really was until after I graduated with my BSCE. I've was laying out buildings for my dad when I was 15, so I knew that construction surveying was cool and that was it. Never had any idea that a PE and a land surveyor were actually different until well into my working career.

Let's save the engineer surveyor chicken egg thing for another post. I understand the opposing schools of thought.

Pomona and Fresno State are both still offered under the department of civil engineering. They are ABET accredited. Nevada's Great Basin college is not accredited and if you look at the course offerings GB is not nearly as comprehensive a degree as Pomona or Fresno, or SDSU (my school).

I am frankly extremely suprised that the NV Board does not recognize a CA PLS with a BSCE and the necessary experience both office and field (poison oak scars to boot) as an acceptable candidate for licensure.

It's not as though I got my CA LS from the back of Rolling Stone magazine.

The law went into effect on July 1, 2010. I got my CA LS on July 16, 2010. Had my license came through before July 1, I would have been fine. But now I'm stuck in this quagmire.

Something seems fundamentally wrong with Nevada's stance on this. They had three candidates sit for their LS exam since the law went into effect according to Lane Garrison. It looks like their good old boys conducted genocide on their own kind and closed the gates on their westerly neighbors.

[bruce hall]

4 year degree in Land Surveying or Civil Engineering to sit for the LS exam will close the gates on a lot of qualified candidates. I don't care which state you reside in or want to work in.

After all, we all know that this land surveying is like rocket science or real close thereto. It is more important than medicine ("land surveying is not life or death, it's more important than that" said one reknown expert in surveying).

I don't know if a lawyer needs a degree in lawyering before he sits for the bar, but if he doesn't, maybe he should. The lives of the accused can take a drastic turn for worse if the attorney doesn't do the right job, and I am sure that a college education in lawering will give the accused a better shot at liberty.

Makes sense to me ;) !!

[rpost]

The beauty of the California stance is in my opinion the right stance. If you can pass the test, you can practice land surveying/civil engineering. Make the test tough and let people give it a shot.

I know many surveyors licensed in other states, some whom are also licensed in CA. The common factor is that they all hold the CA license in high regard due to the examination. If you can pass it's yours.

It is very unfortunate that a state doesn't allow reciprocity based on licensure. However, there is no excuse for not allowing a BSCE holding licensed surveyor to take the exam. Period.

[Stephen Johnson]

The beauty of the California stance is in my opinion the right stance. If you can pass the test, you can practice land surveying/civil engineering. Make the test tough and let people give it a shot.

I know many surveyors licensed in other states, some whom are also licensed in CA. The common factor is that they all hold the CA license in high regard due to the examination. If you can pass it's yours.

It is very unfortunate that a state doesn't allow reciprocity based on licensure. However, there is no excuse for not allowing a BSCE holding licensed surveyor to take the exam. Period.

I totally disagree that a CE degree in any way qualifies an engineer to be a surveyor. The only applicable part of the course work is the mathematics.

BTW. I started toward a CE degree many years ago and acquired enough hours to be classified as a Junior. I understand the requirements for a CE degree and the requirements to be a Surveyor.

[E_Page]

A BS degree in CE and a BS degree in Surveying generally have comparable general educational (non-major) courses, comparable math and science, and little else.

Most ABET accredited BS survey degrees (when I attended) had 12 to 20 quarter units of engineering materials/design coursework, and 60 to 70 of surveying. Checking OIT's current curriculum, I see that they have replaced most of the engineering courses with GIS courses, reflecting the increasing divergence of the two professions.

Most ABET accredited CE degrees have 4 to 10 credits of surveying, with many having none at all. If they have surveying coursework, it is usually a basic SUR 101 lab where they learn to run a short traverse and a simple level loop on campus, and then maybe a construction staking course.

The equivalent of that for a surveyor would be taking a course that gives the student an overview of the properties of typical design materials, and then another in simple hydraulics in which the student designs a simple storm system utilizing different materials. Neither set of educational coursework is sufficient to claim that the student is adequately educated in the other to fill an educational requirement for that other profession.

Some CE degree programs may offer a little more survey content, but nowhere near the 60 to 80 hrs (incl elective courses) that a survey degree has.

I know it's inconvenient, maybe shocking, that some would hold that a CE degree is inadequate to count as a Survey degree, and that my opinion will rile some, but IMO, it's about time that the state Boards start realizing that surveying is not a subset of CE and that education as a CE is not equivalent to education as a surveyor. Not saying one education is more difficult than the other or better than the other, but they are different.



For Bruce: You wrote "I don't know if a lawyer needs a degree in lawyering before he sits for the bar..."

In most states, he would need a degree. In CA, graduation from an accredited law school allows the graduate to sit for the Bar without further experience or testing, but a degree is not a strict requirement. I don't have the exact particulars, but with practical experience and by passing what is commonly called the "Baby Bar", a person without a degree from an accredited law school may sit for the Bar.

I don't know the requirements for various medical professions.

[bruce hall]

Evan...........

[LS_8750]

Yes, I hear you Evan. And I do indeed understand exactly the difference between civil engineering and land surveying and the different university curriculums that would be offered for each, respectively.

But here I am, PE and LS in California, with or without the BSCE or whatever education that may have preceeded these credentials.

I am an example of what is wrong with the Nevada Board's view on this. But look at the Nevada AG's view, last page of the attached.

Actually I think the Nevada board may bend on this. My application response letter states that my application has been denied because I have not taken the LSIT only.

Now with everything said, should I be denied the opportunity for licensure because I do not have a 4-year degree in land surveying?

[rpost]

On a slightly different note, I was told over the phone early last week by a Nevada licensed surveyor that the education requirements were contingent on a Nevada school being accredited by the first of this year.

The NV LS told me that the education requirements had officially expired. Is there any merit to this? Please note that I have not taken the time to research this at all.

[Dave Karoly, PLS]

I agree with everything Evan said but I also agree with Mr. Stoner that he should qualify for the exam. Not that my opinion counts for anything especially in Nevada.

The academics live in a fantasy land where a hard degree requirement will suddenly increase their program enrollments. I personally think the opposite will actually happen. There are no easy answers. Our profession has a tradition of being highly populated by late bloomers which doesn't fit well with the 4 year degree program right out of high school when you are young with no obligations such as family and house payments, etc.

[E_Page]

Clark,

The AGO is pretty clear that the NV Board has discretion with respect to approving the applications of out of state licensees.

NRS 625.382(1) speaks of equivalent standards of land survey licensure. Even before 7/1/10 when the degree requirement became effective, CA did not have equivalent standards for licensure. In fact, CA has among the weakest standards that have to be met in order to sit for the exam.

The following is not intended to be a reflection of or opinion of your competence as a surveyor. I've read many well thought out comments by you here and have no reason to think that you are anything but competent as both a PLS and as CE.

But, if I were to put myself in the place of the PLS at the NV Board, deciding on an application such as yours, here's what I would be considering:

- NV, up to last year required 10 years of LS experience, acceptable to the Board to demonstrate competence to be in responsible charge. CA only requires 6, only 2 of which need to be "responsible training". Quite a disparity right off.

- As the other option up to last year, and the only option now, NV requires graduation from an approved 4 year LS degree program plus 4 years of experience acceptable to the Board. The NRS doesn't say that the 4 yr degree need be ABET accredited, only approved by the Board. I don't know, but suspect that in addition to out of state ABET degrees, Great Basin is probably approved by the NV Board. Here, CA is a little closer, but still a bit short, requiring only 2 years of "responsible training" in addition to an accredited surveying degree.

- CA also has made an easier path for CEs. A licensed CE who may or may not have a degree, only needs to show 2 years of "progressive" experience. It doesn't even need to include "responsible training". At least on the surface, this is a significantly lower bar w.r.t. actual survey experience. As most practicing surveyors would attest, good experience is the most important of the qualifications. If a person is on a crew as a chainman for a year, does CAD work drawing topos and RSs for 6 months, moves back the field as a party chief for a month or two, and then rounds out the 2 years making redmarks as a map checker, that is progressive although only 6 months of it can really be called "responsible training". A graduate with a BS in surveying from an accreddited school on a similar experience track would still have another year and a half to go under CA's requirements.

So as the PLS for the NV Board, I'm looking at this application of a CE, licensed for what, somewhere between 5 and 10 years(?), and also licensed as a PLS for 1 year. I don't know how much of your practice is engineering and how much is surveying, but if I figure 50/50, I know that you have at least 2 1/2 years of surveying experience, of which it may be that only 6 months of it would be acceptable to the NV Board as demonstrating the ability to be in responsible charge of survey work.

- A degree in CE is not the same as a degree in Survey. Typical BS Sur has 60 to 80 units in surveying, typical BS in CE has 12 or less.

As the NV PLS for the Board, I just don't see the equivalence in qualifications.

But recall that the AGO stated that the NV Board may exercise discretion with respect to out of state licensees, so you may yet be able to get an application approved for the NV LS without getting a new degree.

So now stepping out of that perspective, what I see you needing to do is to show the NV Board how you meet their standards through a different route.

You first need to recognize and accept that NV's requirements are not CA's requirements and no other sovereign state is required to raise or lower their standards to those of another sovereign in order to accommodate residents of that other state.

Make an honest assessment of your education and experience in comparison to the coursework offered in an accredited BS Sur degree and your degree and other education you have received. If you compare to an ABET/EAC (Surveying Engineering, Geomatics Engineering) like Fresno, more of your CE classes will compare favorably. What cont. ed. seminars have you attended? Do you have record of them? If you have significant gaps between your education and the subject matter of a BS Sur, start working to close those gaps. If GB's curriculum is accepted by the NV Board, start taking some classes from them.

Make an honest assessment of your surveying experience. Since you do not have a BS in Surveying and are yet hoping to convince the NV Board to allow you to take the exam anyway, you will likely have to show a combination of education and responsible level experience to close the gap. Your CE experience won't help, NAC 625.215 is clear on that. Separate out your survey-only experience, and then make an honest assessment of how much of that you could convincingly show as being to the level of "responsible training". If you can't come up with 4 years or more, plan on waiting at least until you can show it.

If you can convincingly show that you significantly exceed the standards as they were last year with a combination of qualifying experience and education (counting your degree for only 2 years), you might have success at this time, but I think that with a 1 yr old PLS license, you would be fighting this battle too soon.


NV recognizes, by way of regulating them under a common board, that the professions of surveying and engineering are related. But they also are now recognizing, through law that they are significantly divergent that training and experience as one does not adequately prepare a person for licensure as the other.


Ryan - I do not see a provision in the NRS that places the implementation of the dergee requirement on hold pending the existence of an ABET accredited degree. In fact, the law does not mention accreditation at all.

[E_Page]

Dave,

I started my schooling for LS at Ferris in MI in 81. I would estimate that 30% or more of the survey students were those late bloomers you speak of, ranging in age from about 25 to 45.

I finished my degree at OIT in the mid 90s. Over 50% of the survey students there were in their mid 20s or older. Being in my early 30s, I was close to the average age. Some of the students while I was there were into their early 50s.

I'm sure that some of the influence from academia for a degree requirement is motivated by a hope for increased enrollment, but I think that the factors driving the trend among the states are 1) a recognition that mentoring is not occurring as it once did, and is unlikely to ever return, 2) the technology is more complex, and although easier to use, requires significantly more training to fully understand, 3) as land is increasingly partitioned up and occupied, the effects of surveyors having a less than fully adequate understanding of the laws, and/or operating to lower standards of practice are more apparent, and rather than lying dormant for decades, cause real and expensive problems for landowners and developers before boundaries become settled by repose.

The degree requirement is a means of attempting to close gaps in training left by the loss of mentorship, and to standardize and raise the standard of practice by preparing surveyors with a broader understanding of surveying as a whole, and a deeper understanding of how certain methods are designed to work.

Whether or not the degree programs are actually doing that or whether they have the correct focus is a matter for a different discussion.

[LS_8750]

Even, thanks for your input and honesty. You pounded the point squarely on its head. Experience.

I'm going to write a letter to the NV Board, not appealing their decision, but rather to notify them that I will take my LSIT this coming October and that I will update my experience when I forward my LSIT certificate to them.

The NV Board did not contest my experience, I gave them 4-years to coincide with the time frame for which I have known or worked with my references. I have years more "engineering surveying" experience, but the experience I gave the NV Board was purely related to boundary work. Nevada does not distinguish "engineering surveying" from land surveying, whereas in CA the Board requires applicants to specifically demonstrate experience in land surveying.

I might just slither through this.


On the surface, California appears fairly lax on their experience requirements for both LS and PE licensure (that is with a related BS for the PE, and a PE for the LS). They are not lax. When I was taking my PE there were a number of out-of-staters coming from NV and CO and elsewhere taking the exam, possibly due to the minimal 2 year CA experience requirement (?). My PE mentors (references) did not care about the 2 years, they cared about my readiness, my maturity. I graduated with my BSCE at 23, I got my PE at 30. (I also saw a number of my classmates taking the exam at the same time as me) They were right too. My LS was a bit different. My LS mentors recognized my PE as representing maturity and they saw me in the field every day. They saw me seeking out my own answers to boundary related problems. After a few years they had no problem signing a reference form for me. Incidentally, I was single at the time and wanted to survey and did not want to be stuck in an office doing engineering all the time.

As for mentoring, I am greatly in favor of it. Both land surveying and engineering as we all know take a lifetime to develop true mastery. I see a kid whose "getting it" and I push him (her) toward the beauty of it. I have a kid who changed his major from engineering to geology because he would rather survey and do geomorphology based on the type of work I have exposed him to. I look to you guys in this forum for mentorship. I believe it is our duty to pass the craft through the generations, doing so keeps the history and the future connected.

[land butcher]

States like NV and NM that totally ignore experience and are adamant about 4 year degrees are, IMO, uneducated. They have been sold a bill of goods by academia and NCEES. Three cheers for the power of money and lobbists.

Exc for boundary analysis, most of surveying anymore is just button pushing. Some years back it was stated that the surveyor when defending himself in court should have intimate knowledge of how his equipment works and calculations done. Anyone here have intimate knowledge of the software they use.

I learned surveying when you had to know the formulas to get your answers, and to recognize a wrong result. Too many times these days I hear "That's what the computer said so it must be right", Yea, take that to the bank.