what can we do?

dmi · Post by **dmi** » Mon Apr 20, 2009 1:37 pm

Please take a look at the attached PDF.
I have been alarmed for sometime, as a small business, about being crowded out of internet space by advertising bundling firms. I believe this is a matter that our professional organization ought to look into and find a way to stop it.

What say you?

pls7809 · Post by **pls7809** » Mon Apr 20, 2009 4:08 pm

I don't know that CLSA can really do anything. I also am not sure that ConstructionDeals.com are doing anything wrong to be honest with you. I joined that site for a year to try it out, it was about $19 per month. I certainly got more project proposals by joining, but only was able to land one of them.

Basically the person seeking a surveyor logs in to the site and fills out a form to determine what type of project they need done (plumbing, landscaping, surveying, etc.) and what area of the world their project is in. Then as a surveyor who joined the site, I filled out a form that said where my business was located and how far I would go from my place of business to do work. If a potential client's project triggered both items (surveying and proximity) then I would get an email pretty identical to the one you have attached. Then from that email - it's up to me if I wish to contact that person or not. If I agree to contact then it sends me to a page with the person's phone number or email address. I then would either call or email the person to ask about the project and ask them what they are looking for. After receiving a response from the potential client - then I provide a written proposal and explaing anything they may not understand about what is required (RS, LLA, topo survey, etc.). Then it is up to the client to determine who they hire.

The website basically holds a list of surveyors, who have joined their site, up to a list of potential clients who need surveyors and sends emails to each surveyor that matches the location of the project. Usually only the first 5 responses get a chance to propose.

I found that about 95% of the time the person wanting the survey wanted to hire the cheapest price, which is why I didn't renew. The one that I did get, I came in at the third or fourth highest out of five - but he told me he was impressed with how I explained everything to him and also impressed that I met him on the site to check it out prior to proposing.

I was never in contact with anyone except for the client, so I don't believe that falls in survey broker territory. I definitely see the negative this site can provide to the profession as it indirectly encourages low-balling your prices - but I believe that is up to the surveyor providing the quotes if they plan to lower their prices to get a job. I never did compromise on that and I even told several of them that I will not be the lowest proposal that they will get.

Ryan.

dmi · Post by **dmi** » Mon Apr 20, 2009 4:31 pm

They are damaging the image of the profession. to start with and that is more important in my mind than if they are guilty of breaking some particular existing rule. If you search for other professions you will find no such bundling advertisers. You are not going to find a bundler that has attorneys and paralegals and court reporters under the same banner. Another complaint is that as a small business advertizer I cannot compete with them for online adevertizing real estate.

It is a bad thing and I believe that if we do not have a rule in place, we need to get one, that is the point I am trying to make....

BTW thanks Ryan

pls7809 · Post by **pls7809** » Mon Apr 20, 2009 9:48 pm

I agree entirely. I was trying to think of an existing rule or law they were breaking, but couldn't think of one. They are hurting our profession. I would be glad to expand some on my experiences if CLSA were to look into this at all. I am sure there are others who have tried it as well.

E_Page · Post by **E_Page** » Tue Apr 21, 2009 6:23 am

I don't like it either, Dane, but I don't think that they are doing anything illegal.

If you have a viable suggestion, write up some proposed legislation, kick it around your chapter, and then send a proposal to the Legislative Committee.

I don't really have any suggestion for what the language would look like, mostly because I doubt that the CLSA or anyone else would be succesful in drafting legislation that would get through the legislature.

Realize that what you are talking about is instituting a legal means to protect a profession (business), and the vast majority of our state government as it is now constituted is not predisposed to doing anything that even has the appearance of protecting business.

I'll bet if you were to do an internet search, that you would find this sort of thing for the legal profession.

Gary O · Post by **Gary O** » Tue Apr 21, 2009 7:11 am

I don't have a vested interest in this but that won't stop me from opining! HA!

I don't see where they're breaking any laws. I visited the site and went to the list of land surveyors. They list 18 firms, all licensed and all of the locals known to me. There were maybe 6 firms within 10 miles of my location (distance shown on the ad) and the rest were between 60 and 120 miles away.

For our area, you'd be competing against the same people anyway. Is someone 60-120 miles away going to be competitve? It just seems like a glorified yellow pages ad. For our area I don't see how it's hurting anyone, just getting these guys 20 bucks a month from everyone listed.

E_Page · Post by **E_Page** » Tue Apr 21, 2009 7:35 am

The part that really bothers me is the estimated fees listed. Are the prospective clients themselves coming up with these, or is there something on the cunstruction deal website that is driving these prices.

Most of the fees that I've seen on these have been between 20% and 50% of a realistic fee to perform the survey. Not a fee with some comfort room, but for a job with no surprises.

But you're right, Gary. I think that they are a listing service and not acting as a broker. Procuring the work is illegal. Putting the client in touch with a qualified professional is not.

dmi · Post by **dmi** » Tue Apr 21, 2009 8:00 am

Evan, I have done a search for Doctors and Attorneys and I seen nothing like the bundling advertiser for those professions. The other professional just do not have this type of interference. I wonder why. I do not see how we can be best serviced by being lumped together with landscapers and house painters.

For the record, I am listed on Constructiondeal.com, but it is just a listing where potential clients can contact me directly. But I refuse to pay for leads.
I do not believe that they are in violation of any specific laws or rules.

My point is that it does not take much imagination to see that these bundling advertisers are harming our interests. If enough people have a similar perception perhaps we can come up with a solution.

E_Page · Post by **E_Page** » Tue Apr 21, 2009 8:12 am

I agree with you Dane. But the point you make, and the core issue is what it is doing to "our" interests.

"We" are the service provider, the business. The laws are in place to protect the consumer. Remember the name of the parent agency of our licensing board?

If you could make a strong case as to how this is harming the consumer, then you may have a chance of being able to do something about it.

Remember our political climate (and since you are speaking of making a law, this is political): Business, bad. Bash business to make self look like champion of common people, good.

In other words, you could make a credible argument that degrading the profession results in poorer quality service for the consumer, and we may all agree completely with your logic. Several politicians of differing political persuasions may personally agree with your logic. But if your proposal does not appear to be helping the consumer, preferrably to the detriment of the service provider (business), then most politicians, especially those of the political persuasion that dominate in your area, won't support it.

You are an eeeevil business owner only out to underpay your employees (nevermind that you are your whole staff) and overcharge your clients. How typically self serving of the business community! (not really my opinion, just putting on my best finger-wagging, demagogueing, grandstanding politician impersonation)

dmi · Post by **dmi** » Tue Apr 21, 2009 8:39 am

I know that they do not care about the protection of our interests,and they see our efforts in this arena as only self serving, but WE ought to care about protecting our interests. Certainly, we have to present what we want in terms of what will benefit others, the public.

Your points are well made and well received and now I have to go and oppress someone from the underclass... ah wait that would be me...

thanks for your support....

7702 · Post by **7702** » Tue Apr 21, 2009 12:18 pm

Dane,

Sounds like you need a break from the trials and tribulations of running your own business. How about a nice, relaxing time up in the mountains, surrounded by some of your best forum buddies? Say, about the end of June, at Yosemite! We could sure use your help.

dmi · Post by **dmi** » Tue Apr 21, 2009 12:55 pm

Mark,
How dare you suggest that I actually do something that is fun. BTW where are folks meeting and for how long. I gather this is for the forestery request that was posted on the board. More details would be helpful....

thanks for your concern...

7702 · Post by **7702** » Tue Apr 21, 2009 1:46 pm

Dane,

Sorry for hijacking your thread. But, thanks for the interest in the Yosemite project. If you haven't done so already, take a look at the Yosemite thread. The numerous posts should answer most of your questions.

thanks

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