Yosemite Forest Surveying

Ric7308 · Post by **Ric7308** » Fri Apr 10, 2009 1:48 pm

I am interested as this sounds like a great opportunity to interact with the forestry profession. Please follow up with schedule, tentative or otherwise so we can see how the timing works out. I know that RAM will most likely be interested and Marta Alvarez also.

Ric Moore

7702 · Post by **7702** » Sun Apr 12, 2009 2:24 pm

Ric,

Sounds like a great experience.

Concerning professional responsibility, would the volunteer LS's be required to sign and seal any of the "survey" work?

7702 · Post by **7702** » Tue Apr 14, 2009 4:59 pm

Jim,

Would it be beneficial for the plot boundary to be tied to a known datum, such as existing Govt. corners, park boundary, or possibly a GPS derived latitude and longitude? Do your crews ever use RTK or hand held GPS receivers for locating purposes?

RAM · Post by **RAM** » Wed Apr 15, 2009 6:47 am

Jim,

Could you post Lat/long so I can review the area? I am local to that area and actualy surveyed there last week. Without knowing your site, our past expericence has been GPS in the area is hit or miss, due to trees and the terrain. If I knew the location, I could give some more input on the logistics.

RAM

7702 · Post by **7702** » Wed Apr 15, 2009 1:44 pm

I don't know if it would be worth the trouble or not, but it would be kinda neat to carry elevations, even if assumed, and then generate a topo map showing the cell locations.

RAM · Post by **RAM** » Fri Apr 17, 2009 7:07 am

On quick review, due to the terrian GPS will be hit or miss, I do know of 2 control points within reasonable distance which could be tied using static GPS but not likely that the grid could be layed out using GPS. Based on our past USFS contracts, figure on 600-800' per day of conv. traverse in the woods. As of yesterday, this elevation and aspect (North slope) still had snow.

Ric7308 · Post by **Ric7308** » Fri Apr 17, 2009 8:23 am

Russ,

Now you know why I suggested to Jim that you should volunteer as well. Based on what Jim has conveyed so far, I would suggest that a number of Land Surveyors should be involved. There may be several that cannot commit to the full three weeks and from a logistics point of view, it may be a good idea to formulate a strategy on how to plan for the transition and documentation.

Marta Alvarez and I have contacted Jim offering our assistance and I am sure there are several others that would provide a great deal of knowledge and assistance to the efforts. Russ's local knowledge of the area is a tremendous asset.

Ric

E_Page · Post by **E_Page** » Fri Apr 17, 2009 8:46 am

Once you have a core survey team together, let me know. Depending upon the final schedule, I may be able to come out for a couple of days and be a chainman while the family runs around down in the valley.

Then RAM can buy my kids that ice cream he promised way back when.

7702 · Post by **7702** » Fri Apr 17, 2009 9:23 am

The scope of the survey portion of the project seems simple enough. The real challenge is in coordinating multiple crews to work simultaneously with a minimum of confusion and blunders.

Does anybody have any suggestions for subdividing this plot? Maybe traversing the full length of the plot interior at 100 meter intervals, effectively creating the 25-one hectare lots would work. You could have four crews establish the north-south interior lines by running simultaneously (and independently) from control along the south boundary to control along the north boundary. After the north-south interior lines are established, then four crews could establish the east-west interior lines and tie into control for the north-south lines as they went, in order to perform a least-squares adjustment of the interior measurements. The exterior boundary control could be tweaked as well at this point, if not already "fixed". The traverses will be random due to typical obstructions encountered in this type of forested environments. The one hectare grids could then be subdivided independently, with one crew per grid, and as many crews working as possible.

**probably be a good idea to have reserved point numbers and perhaps different colored flagging for each of the control lines. If alpha-numeric point numbers are acceptable with all the data collectors, then maybe a numbering system such as F100 to F199 for the first east-west control line, K100-K199 for the second, and so forth. North-south lines would be numbered in a similar fashion. Of course, actual grid marker locations, as staked, would also receive the assigned number per the published plot diagram.

7702 · Post by **7702** » Fri Apr 17, 2009 11:47 am

"Now this Yosemite plot is fairly flat, and has a really nice open area in one spot, and is pretty open in lots of spots."

My clients, especially realtors, always describe the project site as "flat and open". Then when I get there I see it's anything but! :)

RAM · Post by **RAM** » Fri Apr 17, 2009 12:25 pm

this area is fairly flat for Yosemite, BUT the quad sheet shows 150-200' elevation difference over 1/4 mile. I will check the calander as well and may be able to commit to a weekend.

PS the Ice cream is in the freezer.

RAM · Post by **RAM** » Fri Apr 17, 2009 12:26 pm

Also suggest contact CSU Fresno for potenial gunts. School is out around May 20. Dr. James Crossfield would be the contact.

RAM · Post by **RAM** » Fri Apr 17, 2009 12:27 pm

PS PS maybe this could be a reunion of sorts.

Ric7308 · Post by **Ric7308** » Fri Apr 17, 2009 12:54 pm

So, I'm guessing we will not be able to do any "selective pruning"?

Russ, good idea on contacting Geomatic students from Fresno.

Mark, are you going to try and help out?

Maybe with Russ's close proximity, he can go by and do a "look see" before we propose a cost to do this survey!

7702 · Post by **7702** » Fri Apr 17, 2009 1:55 pm

Jim, actually it might be considered fairly "flat". Level, on the other hand, probably not! I'm just messin' with you a little since I'm an UO fan. Go Ducks!

I would like to help if I can, for at least a couple of days.

I love the mountains and I've never been up to Yosemite before. Unfortunately, it's a long drive for me and I'm not too sure of my schedule just yet. I know I have a scheduling conflict on the weekend of the 20 and 21st (family reunion), so the first week of the scheduled surveying is the most I could assist with.

I do have my own survey equip (no gps) and would be able to supervise at least one crew, maybe more, if I feel energetic enough to run back and forth! Some hand held radios or walkie-talkies would be handy. (but not everyone on the same frequency!)

I'm concerned about the amount of time it's going to take to survey in all 676? of the grid markers, and the fact that the survey crews need to stay ahead of the tree mappers. It's probably going to take about two days per crew to run each of the eight random lines along the interior "hectare" lines (assuming it's done that way). Depending on how open the grids are, it will probably take at least a day for each crew to set the grid markers within each one-hectare lot. This doesn't include the time to establish the control for the exterior boundary. To keep everybody working, a baseline might need to be set up with assumed coordinates and then release some of the crews to start running the interior lines, while others are finishing the rest of the exterior. Definitely not as simple logisticly as establishing the exterior first, but maybe necessary due to time constraints. There will be be lots of daylight in June, so long work days are possible for those that are motivated.

Scott · Post by **Scott** » Fri Apr 17, 2009 2:29 pm

Here is that portion of the quad. My Dad (Tom RCE/PLS) and I are planning on being there to help June 12-14. Sounds like alot of fun. I don't think Jim is interested at all where the plot is in the world. I think we will need to concentrate on getting the grid layed out in such a way that we have enough areas for the amount of crews/equipment we can scrape together. Jim, what kind of accuracy and precision are you looking for on the individual points?
Also, I agree with Jim that we surveyors should have one person in charge. I think anyone with forest experience would be ideal. The most forest surveying Dad and I have done is finding bearing trees while backpacking.
Any volunteers for Lead Project Surveyor? Any nominations?

7702 · Post by **7702** » Fri Apr 17, 2009 2:50 pm

Jim's post (#7):

"So I'm hoping (not required - just hoping), that we could set up a survey quality GPS over one of the grid posts and therefore tie the whole grid into a known position."

and:

"knowing exactly where everything was in an absolute sense would be infinitely more satisfying."

We aim to please.

Berk Blake, PLS CA · Post by **Berk Blake, PLS CA** » Fri Apr 17, 2009 4:28 pm

Scott:

Thanks for the nice .pdf

Berk

7702 · Post by **7702** » Sat Apr 18, 2009 8:05 am

Foresters have told me that since sloping parcels contain more surface area, timber cruise estimates (board feet) are adjusted accordingly.

Being of strong back and arguably weak mind, this concept doesn't make sense to me, since trees tend to grow normal (perpendicular) to the level plane, not the inverted one.

Maybe someone could clue me in here?

Thanks

7702 · Post by **7702** » Sat Apr 18, 2009 2:43 pm

I'm going to go out on a limb here and commit to assisting during the first week, from the 12th through the 17th, or so. I'll probably have to head out by thursday, the 18th. Hopefully, most of the critical survey control will be in by then. I'll be able to run a crew using my equipment, if needed. I could probably show up a couple of days sooner to help with the primary control, if that would help matters any.

Any problems with bringing a couple of family members?

Ric7308 · Post by **Ric7308** » Sat Apr 18, 2009 4:00 pm

Mark,

That would be great. From what I have heard it sounds like about 6 of us have committed, with a couple others as tentative. Most of us have committed to the first week through the 17th though.

It would be nice if a few others could look at their schedules and see what they can do, especially between June 17-26.

Scott · Post by **Scott** » Mon Apr 20, 2009 8:13 am

I was so concerned with the 4 backpack trips Dad and I have scehduled that I forgot to check with my wife about our family schedule. My daughter has a dance recittal that weekend, so Grandpa and I won't be able to make it after all. We will be in the area the next 2 weekends on our backpack trips and we will try to stop by on the way or coming back.
Concerning the PDF, I don't know if everybody already knows this, but you can get free GEO-PDFs on line from the USGS Store:
http://store.usgs.gov/b2c_usgs/usgs/map ... 4ROOT)/.do
Download them for free and print them to scale on any large format printer. After spending up to 7 dollars for those maps it is kind of nice to get them for the price of paper and ink. I am thinking about making some wallpaper.

Ric7308 · Post by **Ric7308** » Mon Apr 20, 2009 12:21 pm

Based on the replies to date, I made up a quick schedule of the "committed" surveyors for Jim and he asked that I post it for everyone to see. It appears that we will need to enlist additional help to cover the time committment required. Especially after the first week.

Please take a look at the schedule and respond if you can devote time to the project.

Ric

Sunburned_Surveyor · Post by **Sunburned_Surveyor** » Mon Apr 20, 2009 12:27 pm

I believe I could help on the weekend that needs additional coverage. I can take Friday, June 18 off work, and will work through Sunday, June 21.

Are any of you out-of-town guys going to get a motel? I wouldn't mind crashing in a tent for a couple nights, but I'll have to find a place to shower.

I might be able to grab another guy from my office if needed.

Sounds like a fun project. The last time I worked with forestry folks was back in Montana at my community college.

The Sunburned Surveyor
PLS 8489

E_Page · Post by **E_Page** » Mon Apr 20, 2009 12:56 pm

Ric,

The orange is for those who have expressed interest but haven't nailed down a time yet, right?

At least I hope so. I don't have that much time to spare.

California Surveyors Forums

Yosemite Forest Surveying

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Yosemite Forest Surveying

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