Maintaining Personal Survey Files

[Sunburned_Surveyor]

I just became licensed in California this fall. I work for a small private civil engineering and land surveying company. I'm looking for some advice on a professional/ethical question that has come up. I tried a post on the POB message board, but the opinions were diverse and may not have been applicable for California. I thought it best to try my question here instead.

Before I ask my quesiton, let me describe a scenario:

A land surveyor prepares a parcel map while working for a private company. Several years later the company is dissolved by the owners, and the land surveyor begins working for a public agency. A dispute/conflict arises over the property created in the Parcel Map, and the land surveyor is contacted by the board or an attorney regarding his role in the project.

Would it be prudent in this situation for the land surveyor to have a personal copy of the data (like field notes) that he used to prepare the parcel map?

My basic question is this: Is a land surveyor required by state law to keep the information he needs to defend and answer questions about past work that he performed, sealed, and signed? If this is not a requirement of the law, does keeping this information violate copyright, data ownership, or company confidentiality laws?

There must be a balance between protecting the competitive edge of a small business and allowing a licensed professional the access he needs to defend the work he is responsible for. I'm trying to understand this balance so I can have this conversation with my employer. I'm not trying to "steal" any records without my employer's permission, nor am I looking to obtain information that I could give or take to a competitor. I'm simply trying to cover my own rear end and fulfill my legal and professional responsibilities under the law.

I fully intend to have an honest an up-front discussion with my employer about this issue, and I'm hoping we can come to a reasonable agreement.

Thanks for any advice or direction.

The Sunburned Surveyor (PLS 8489)

[Ian Wilson]

Excellent question, Landon! It’s also one I asked and struggled with after I earned my license. I hope anyone worth his or her salt struggles with it, too.

For a few years, I kept a log of every time I used my stamp. Then it got to be a pain in the…, so I discontinued the log. Beside, other than wasting paper and time, what purpose did it serve? If the document bore my stamp and the signature looked like mine and I remembered the project, though not necessarily the details, it was probably mine.

As for copies of notes, plats, maps and documents, I used to keep those, too. Like you, I was afraid of not having the details and the notes.

In fifteen years of being licensed, I have never been asked for my notes in court. It simply does not happen. What they want is the though process behind my conclusions and my findings. Anything else is superfluous.

The moral of this story is: make sure that you put enough information on your maps so that anyone can follow exactly what you did and deduce why you did it, even many years later. Some states require a narrative, either on the map itself or in a recorded document along with the map. California does not require such a beast. However, there is no injunction against you putting a commentary on the map as to the procedure used and the logic behind it.

I specialize in boundary, and not just nice, pretty, easy boundary. Over the past 500 or so projects, other than those specifically for litigation, I have been in court or needed those notes to answer such questions exactly zero times.

Now, pass the popcorn, Landon. Let’s sit back and watch the show…………..

[Gromatici]

Many larger firms make you sign a "trade secret" agreement whereas you will not keep any documents, digital or hard copy of the work or even client contact lists.

You make a valid point however: It's the company that is liable financially for any lawsuit, but what if you’re being sued after you leave the company for a job you worked on, I don't know. I suppose the attorneys can try to sue you and if that is the case I'd imagine that I'd want all the data I could get my hands on. However, the former company may not want me to have the data least they reveal some sort of liability and open themselves up to damages.

Maybe this is a good question for the Attorneys out there.

Personally, I would want some minimal data for my own records like copies of the finished product so I could at least get a look at what I produced.

Even if I were not financially liable, I could still get reported to the Board and my license revoked. My former employer may not be under any obligation to release data. If they were subpoenaed they could simply shred the evidence and I’d be done with.

[E_Page]

I've got copies of most of the completed drawings that I've stamped, but no notes or project file contents.

Like Ian said, put enough on your drawings that they pretty much speak for themselves. A good narrative or drawing notes should be able to sufficiently jog your memory of the important particulars of a project years later.

[Stan_K]

Landon

As Ian said, this is the question every PLS has to face. There are different answers, depending on the context of the question. I have served as an expert in about 10 cases. In only one were the "notes" called into question, and they were used to find a "possible" error. That "possible" error is what hung the surveyor!

The Courts seem to rule that the signed document must stand on it's own.

As you know, the President of the firm I worked for in Alaska was a highly respected attorney. His take was to NOT keep "notes" and longer than required by law. There is a very high probability of finding something to question, if you have more data to review.

The other side is, I wish I had more notes and data on certain past projects just to site them in new proposals and SOQs.

Just food for thought.

[subman]

Maybe the first thing to do when you become licensed when you are employed by a private firm is to get a copy of the firm's insurance policy and consult with your own attorney to understand how the policy protects you against litigation during your term of employment and how it may protect you after separation in the event you are named individually in a lawsuit against your former employer for work you performed and signed/sealed during your employment.

Certainly if the insurance policy protects you after separation for work you did while you were employed by the firm, you would want to take a copy of the policy with you when you left.

[dmi]

I would suggest talking to your employer and coming to an agreement as to how to proceed with projects that are in progress in the event that you are no longer with the employer, since your are responsible for records of surveys and the like. You want to make sure that they make provisions either to let you finish the project of getting records of survey recorded and/or that they make approriate provisions to see to it that someone can step in as responsible charge and finish compliance with state mandates.

[E_Page]

Some of the advice is put in terms of what happens when you leave. Unless you have plans of leaving your current employment soon, you should be very careful how you present that to your employer. It's not wise to put that seed in his brain. He might get the impression that you are setting yourself up to leave soon and that could affect your long term outlook.

An employer doesn't want to invest, in terms of increased income, in terms of time, or in terms of trust on projects that are more involved or may have complicated or delicate issues, in an employee who is perceived as being short term.

You've been given some very good suggestions, both as to which records you should view as important and which you might think about foregoing, and as to how you might go about attaining those records. It's an important conversation to have with your employer, but exercise some discernment in what you ask for and how you ask for it.

[dmi]

Evan,
I am not suggesting you walk into the boss's office and start the conversation with "When I quit what are you gonna do about..." and launch into a laundary list of what you want them to do for you. While some employers believe the employee owes eveything to the employer. I take the view that they both need each other therefore it ought to be a two way street. If one has the type of "Because I said so boss", then it pretty much does not matter because they are not likely to appreciate your need for protection and do anything about. While your advice about how to approch the boss is helpful, I think Landon and I are big boys and we could navigate that relationship. My feeling is if is far more likely that Landon will have a problem with what is left over to finish in the event he is left go because times are slow(things are tough in San Joaquin Valley) or he has to leave for other reasons or decides to move on to greener pastures. There are plenty of ways to talk about these issues with a reasonable employer. One might start with a question- Now that I am licensed how has my role as employee changed, if it has ?

[E_Page]

i WASN'T SUGGESTING THAT YOU WERE, dANE (uh oh, CAD case).

Some of the advice, including what you wrote, and to some extent what I wrote, here and on the other forum, if not followed with some discretion, could cause problems for an employee broaching the issue with an employer.

This can be a very delicate issue, depending upon the disposition of the employer. Care is in order.

Your closing question is a great basis for such a discussion.

[dmi]

Evan,
Its okay, I probably should be yelled at. You are on the money with taking care to present topics for dicussion with employers in a manner that does not leave them thinking you have one foot out the door, when you actually don't.

[goodgps]

When I had a personal case brought up against my company, I did not include the LS who ran calcs and actually prepared the map in question.

As far as the attorneys for each side were concerned, he was just an employee acting under my direction at time of employeement.

I have seen, however, licensed staff currently employed by a company, get dragged into lawsuites. The plaintiff's attorney seems to take the belief, that a settlement is likely if the request is shared amongst several people.

As far as notes go, someone said it very well, that the recorded document stands best on its' own without the clutter of notes.
this is contradicted by a possibility that a map/plat was prepared without full consideration of the notes, and this was done so under your tenure.

If you are signing maps, then it is a responsibility to review said documents(including) notes.

Memory is your best ally in court. A judge will notice if you remember the job, and consider you to be a true professional.

Ps.
Are you guys selling ringside tickets? (just kidding)

G

[Sunburned_Surveyor]

Thank you for all of the great comments.

I feel I should mention that my employer has always been very reasonable, and I see no reason why we can't come to an agreement on this issue. I haven't discussed it with them in detail just yet. I'm asking questions so I can make sure that my requests are not unreasonable, and so I handle the matter with discretion.

Dennis: I requested a copy of my company's E&O policy before I even received notive that I passed the exam, and I have reviewed it in detail. I have already asked some questions about our coverage to my employer.

I'll let you guys know how things turn out. All of this input has been very helpful, and will be carefully considered.

The Sunburned Surveyor (PLS 8489)