Review of ROS

[LA Stevens]

I was asked sometime ago to check out the location of a driveway relative to the boundary that crossed the clients property. A 30 year old ROS showed the D/W without an easement and the client and attorney wanted to be certain it was the same driveway. Sent crew out to locate road and a few monuments from ROS. Same Road - no problem.

She originally stated she wanted a boundary survey of her whole lot. After some research and a discussion with another surveyor who had completed a ROS a few doors down, I told her we work by the hour and the price could easily exceed 10k based upon the lack of evidence I had discovered to date and the possible problems which may exist. She couldn't afford it.


A month or two later she calls me back and tells me her neighbor on the other side was having a septic system put in. I told her to go to the neighbor and inquire if they had a survey. She said they did and the pre82 engineer would send me a copy.

Lo and behold, I received a septic system plan with topo and partial boundary. I called the CE and asked him if he filed a ROS since this is a portion of a historic lot and a deed described parcel. He stated it was not required. I go on to educate him and send him a copy of the boards response to Northstar Eng. The last I hear from him, he states he didn't contract to do a ROS and wasn't going to do one. I emailed him back and asked him to reconsider.

A few months go by and I have had a few conversations with client and telling her what options might be available, PPC etc...


A week ago I get a ROS map which shows 2 monuments 86 feet apart as found - the same one's I found on the other side of her property shown on the prior ROS. He shows a graphical calculation of the historical sub map and then his deed described parcel approximately 100 to 250 feet away from his found monuments. The surveyor does not show any monuments set by him to represent the boundary. The only monuments shown are the 2 for his Basis of Bearings!

Is it legal for us to perform a survey that cannot be retraced if one of the monuments get disturbed? This engineer is principal of the second or third largest engineering company. I can't imagine how much work he has accomplished since 1980 where he has neglected to file a survey and how much evidence has been destroyed with his improvment plans!

How does the board handle situations like this? If I can use this as a sounding board, I'm hoping it will help our PPC.

I've been asked by my client to review this work and told her based upon the face of it a minimal amount of evidence was found to derive the boundary. Also a more thorough retracement boundary survey could yield much different results.

[E_Page]

Sounds like a perfect example why civils had to start taking the exam to prove they understood the professional end of surveying.

Many are completely ignorant that it is more than a measurement technician position.

However, there is no legal requirement that he set monuments. But there is the basic requirement that he perform to the standard of a reasonably competent surveyor under similar circumstances.

You describe a scenario where you've already determined, in your opinion, that he has fallen way short of that standard.

Many PPCs are hesitant to venture into areas which are not clearly spelled out in the PLSA or the Board Rules, such as Standard of Care issues, but giving them an opportunity to weigh in would be a good next step.

[goodgps]

Now I know why you want to keep those civils in the office.

Lets get together and run some storm calcs . . .

[Dave Karoly, PLS]

Sounds like your client is forced into a position where either...

1) She insists that the neighbor have the boundary marked so that she can either accept the results or contest the results. She can't do that with a paper map because she is just a lay person.

or

2) She pays you to do a proper boundary survey and go from there.

It's too bad the cost of the Survey is expensive but that's just one of the many joys of owning expensive real estate.

[subman]

Hey Good, I have my PLS hall pass, so can I come out of the office...

[goodgps]

Yep !

good boy. no penny loafers though. Boots only in the hall

[E_Page]

Dennis,

You might want to trad in the dockers for a good pair of Carhartts also. And congratulations on moving up to a thinking profession. ;-)

[dmi]

Larry,
Looks like he showed you. I do not think you will have much luck unless you can find clear evidence of violation of the PLS act or board rules. I would look to see if there is evidence that would support a claim of negligence or incompetence. Falling below what in one surveyor's opinion may be the minimum standard of care, is an argument not likely to prevail with the board.

[E_Page]

The Board judges cases of negligence or incompetence by measuring against a reasonable standard of care. But you're right, Dane, that standard won't be determined strictly by one surveyor's idea of what it should be. Evidence that there was more to work from would need to be shown.

[LA Stevens]

"8771. (a) Monuments set shall be sufficient in number and
durability and efficiently placed so as not to be readily disturbed,
to assure, together with monuments already existing, the perpetuation
or facile reestablishment of any point or line of the survey."


When you consider the above section, how can the survey mentioned in this post comply?

[E_Page]

Not that I'm defending the RS, but arguably, the points and lines can be re-established as long as those 2 monuments exist.

[LA Stevens]

The best case scenario is that the surveyors equipment was recently adjusted and he located the controlling monuments within a +-.02 feet. That would mean you could derive the corner furthest away from the monuments (with certain circumstances) being perfect to within .15 feet. I can live with that, but how do you know? He designed improvements up to the setback and I assumed someone built them in accordance with his improvement plan.

Does Ric have any idea how the board has handled prior cases? Most of us memorialize are opinions. It's much less of liability if you never set a monument. The owners have a topographic map, I guess they can build a fence with that.

It doesnt really matter if we have a section to address this particular situation, is it considered a reasonable boundary retracement? If he had shown one other monument or a fence corner on the otherside of the property with an appropriate witness corner for retracement, I would have much less concern. How about one of his control points in and around the property?

Unfortunately, many surveyors in this area are surveying like this. Less is more money in their pockets.

Gota pack. I'm out of the office for the rest of the week. Have fun with the various threads.

[Lee Hixson]

Does anyone have a link to the "Board's response to Northstar Engineering" referred to in the first post? I did a search on the Board website but it didn't turn up anything.

[E_Page]

The Board doesn't normally make those letters public, but I think that if you search this forum, you will find it was posted several months back.

If you can't find it, I believe I have it on my computer at home, and I could email it to you. Otherwise, you could contact Jim Herrick at Northstar and I bet he would be willing to send you a copy and maybe give you some background on it.

[LA Stevens]

If you email me, I'll send you a PDF of it.