California Surveyors Forums

Hello.

I'm looking at possibly doing some work in a recent fire damaged area.

For those of you who have done retracing in these areas, what has been your experience?

Were you able to find any pipes or other monuments that survived the fire? Is everything wiped out and
you have to start from scratch?

Any input would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks.

Mike T.

When we had the great fires here in San Diego, we formed a blue ribbon committee to adopt some procedures and rules for uniformity including how to seal with unexpected discrepancies. I would suggest having your chapter president appoint members to such a committee.

I've done a few around Sonoma and Napa Counties. I find the work depressing. Clients are usually broke, sad and stressed.

The site cleanup usually happens around the middle of the lot, not the edges. We usually find all of the record monuments but the plastic caps are melted unless they were buried. Some monuments are found that have been previously reported lost due to trees, shrubs or fences that were hindering searches now being burnt out.

Evidence of historic fence occupation can be evaluated by tying out the burnt posts or concrete postholes. Not ideal but better than nothing. Ask the clients for photos or use Google maps. Parol evidence is helpful.

Poison oak ash will still give you a rash

Be prepared to reset any monuments that are close to utility hookups as the utility contractors will likely come in and blow out the curbs and sidewalks. Same with the new fence construction crews

Tie out everything you see if you are first on the ground. Later you will be glad you did it.

My experience with the Boles Fire in Weed, CA in 2014 was that the clean up crew wiped out approximately 90% of the monumentation. I don't think the fire did much damage to the monuments, but the clean up was done much like a mass earthwork project, where everything for entire blocks, including exterior fences were excavated out... and so most all of the monumentation was gone with it. Thankfully the City was able to contract with a single firm to survey and mark the corners of every lot that lost a home.

It might be of interest to read the Mike Quartaroli, Central Valley Chapter, “Pre and Post Disaster
Surveyor Monument Preservation Guide” that addresses the fire situation. I am not sure where I read it, but I expect it to be on the CLSA meeting agenda on Saturday, November 7, 2020.

I am sure the Directors will get a copy soon and take it back to the chapters. Ideally, someone will post it here.

Sincerely,

DWoolley

The Post Disaster Guide is 6 MB. I'll see if I can ZIP it.

Chapters 1 and 2

Chapters 3 and 4

Chapter 5.

This is the end of the current draft.

We found that in areas of high density, the clean-up activities destroyed all corner pipes and centerline monuments were still in good condition. Similar to Dave Kendall's experience, in lower density and rural areas the clean up was around the house site, so the corners were still intact. It was important to work with other surveyors to break down the neighborhoods together rather than everyone doing their own thing. Ideally, one surveyor would get several neighbor's together or even the block under one survey. This helps with keeping costs down for the victims and congruency in the re-establishment of property lines. The topos were quick because there is little to tie, and many lots could be surveyed from one point (radially). This helped keep costs down for clients by sending just one field surveyor with a robot. Lastly, I would recommend that you review safety with your field crew(s). Even though the sites were cleaned up, we still encountered a considerable amount of ash, open pits, and other hazards. Best of Luck!

We had the same experiences Martin & Kenall had.

We were fortunate to get in there before cleanup and drove six-foot tee-iron guards next to the corner points. By getting in there before cleanup we were able to save over 90% of the original corner pipes with tags. (You're right about the plastic plugs - gone unless they were buried)

If we didn't flag up the points and drive a tee-iron guard the corners would have been wiped out due to underground utilities replacement.

And as Dave Kendall said . . . it is depressing work. Elderly homeowners starting out all over. Two of my elderly clients not only lost their homes . . . but during the process . . . and trying to figure out if they can rebuilt (insurance needs) - they lost their spouses to cancer. They did not rebuild and found housing elsewhere. : **** ( And we did all that we could to cut 'em a break on survey costs. Also - blessed be the Sonoma County Surveyor's Office for waiving Record of Survey/Corner Record fees for the fire victims. Every little bit helped.)

Have a good weekend all and stay safe and wear the damned mask!

Crazy Phil - Surveyor to Recorder

Well, the traversing is a breeze.

Like Mr. Kendall said, you will find monuments that others perhaps never looked for or did not find due to proximity to brush, etc. that is no longer present.

In December 2017, when I watched a family decorate their brick chimney while sifting through the ashes of what was their house, my heart broke.

Plastic caps/plugs are garbage, and are always melted and gone.

Plastic caps are not durable monuments. They are things children play with. Sort of like Legos. They are toys.

Toys for little boys and girls.

The Orange County Surveyor's office prohibited the use of plastic caps 20 to 25 years ago. Vision.

Even in the best of conditions in Orange County the caps weather, become illegible and slowly fall inside of the pipe. They are unsuitable locally. In a damp humid climate mileage may vary.

I have found many brass disks over 100 years old. The oldest legible plastic cap...maybe, 10 years old?

Locally, for a minute, we had some folks setting cup tacks in lead with a tag. The cup tacks don't last long after the galvanized coating cracks and tack rusts away. When I found the cup tacks, I made a habit of mailing the surveyors a package of brass escutcheon pins (tacks) for their supply with a photo of their cup tacks.

DWoolley

LS_8750 wrote: Plastic caps/plugs are garbage, ....

Always have been, always will be.

This is another example of one of the things CLSA should be able to address. This is low hanging fruit. We should be able to define a "durable monument."

PLSA 8771. Setting of monuments in general; monument perpetuation

(a) Monuments set shall be sufficient in number and durability and efficiently placed so as not to be readily disturbed, to ensure, together with monuments already existing, the perpetuation or facile reestablishment of any point or line of the survey. . . .

On November 7, 2020 the CLSA Board of Directors approved the attached Orange County amendment to Business and Professions Code section 8771 to be sent to the CLSA Legislative Committee. To be clear, the process is for the Board of Directors to approve the Legislative Committee to expend time and resources developing ideas and language for the Directors. This does not mean, at this point, it is approved as written or that it proposed amendment will survive the process. Also, if approved, the Legislature is beginning the two year legislative session - the CLSA membership would have this time to amend, approve or reject the language. Any member with suggestions or input is encouraged to contact their director and/or Central Office in writing.

If the CLSA members wanted to do away with plastic caps I think the more appropriate place to be in the rule making process. Rules further define statutes. The statutes state "durable" the rules could define durable.

DWoolley

David, Martin & others:
As you have stated, plastic caps melted if not buried. How did aluminum caps fair compared to brass, bronze, or other materials?

Well, I saw aluminum engine blocks melted down to blobs on concrete driveways. Don't have any specific recollection of aluminum survey tags being found destroyed. Don't run into many of those around these parts.

scarpa wrote:David, Martin & others:
As you have stated, plastic caps melted if not buried. How did aluminum caps fair compared to brass, bronze, or other materials?

I can only recall seeing one aluminum cap after a fire. It was a melted splat.

Curious, I looked up, using Google, the melting point of the following:

Plastic 338 degrees Fahrenheit.
Aluminum 1221 degrees Fahrenheit.
Brass and/or bronze 900-940 degrees Celsius - 1742 degrees Fahrenheit. [Thank you, T.S. Higgins for the correction.]
Steel 2500-2750 degrees Fahrenheit.

Forest fire temperatures are 1472 degrees Fahrenheit.
House fire temperatures are 1100 degrees Fahrenheit.
Grass fires have a range with the upper range being 600 degrees Fahrenheit. This came from a Canadian study - although converted from Celsius there may be an exchange rate.

DWoolley

For Brass/Bronze I believe that is the melting point in Celcius. In Fahrenheit it melts at 1650, so it should be a suitable material for an "average" forest fire. Only steel is likely to survive an extreme forest fire, so depending on the area you're working in, it may be worth considering.

We don't even use plastic caps for survey control points anymore, those are all aluminum. I've encountered too many plastic caps set within two years of a retracement that had crumbled away to nothing.