California Surveyors Forums

Nothing warms the heart more than seeing something like this in a neighborhood of $5M homes.

And this is how the profession is cheapened.

I'm truly intrigued in understanding the thought process here. It's labeled approximate so I suppose everyone is on notice its useless, great way to put you license at risk and not provide a service to the public.

No kidding! Great point. Plus or minus a tenth, a foot, or ten feet?

The house could be encroaching!!

Yup!

I've seen it many times in Santa Barbara, even by reputable surveyors. Most of them aren't reputable. Not sure why they are willing to do that.......... If everyone refuses to sell out their license, then the client will have to pay to do it right with someone. Maybe that's their idea of a "draft boundary" I've got a picture of a surveyor who put a pk nail in a chain link fence. That's what we call a ambulatory boundary! (Just lean on the fence).

Silly questions:
1. Is it a violation of the LS Act for an LS to set something like this? and
2. Is it a violation of the PE/LS Acts for a PE to set something like this?
3. What does Approximate PL mean to the person making the statement, and what does it mean to the person interpreting the statement?

Good questions all of them. From my experience, the consumer/property owner does not know the difference. Things like this lead to conflicts and litigation. Any thoughts on the attached Board opinion?

Per the attached.

https://www.californiasurveyors.org/PDF ... rveyor.pdf

Question:

How will I be shown what has been surveyed?

Corners of the property will be marked with stakes, pipes, or other such monuments with the Professional Land Surveyor's license number indicated thereon. The corners on the parcel will be pointed out to you, if requested. A record of survey or corner record will be filed when these monuments are set, indicating dimensions of property lines, monuments, and other relative data as required by the Land Surveyors Act, the client, or others.

**********************************************************************

What would you charge to set approximate corner stakes versus certified, pinned, stamped, and filed corners?

Here you go!

I don't need your stinking license!

https://www.expertgps.com/tutorials/how ... ceiver.asp

The Board's opinion sounds wishy-washy to me, and does not answer my above questions. To scoff at the original post and move on is not an acceptable approach to me either.

I know this is not a black and white issue philosophically, but we should all see what's going on in the original post.

Fact from my experience in dealing with the Board in this kind of situation, when I found set ginnies marked Property Corner is, . . .

They don't care, even though the neighbor told me the name on the side of the truck.
Better yet, I was told the ginnies are no better than my nail & tag shown on a corner record, because we both used only the street monuments shown on the tract map and did not survey the rear corners of the tract, which are coincident to the railroad. Sorry to say, but just the facts.

Bottom line, the clients get what they pay for, and if they hire a non-professional surveyor, they save money. The clients do not understand and know the PLS Act, so it is the unprofessional LS not educating the public to do the right thing, doing more harm than good.

Good luck to you!!!

At some point in time, I am hopeful the profession will unify in elevating our stature. There are too many surveyors who have no motivation to do the right thing. It is an endless cycle down the drain.

You know, I see this same mentality in the civil engineering profession too.
Maybe this mentality reflects a defect in character, some sort of lack of self worth or understanding.

LS_8750 wrote:You know, I see this same mentality in the civil engineering profession too.
Maybe this mentality reflects a defect in character, some sort of lack of self worth or understanding.

I think it's an inability to stand up for your profession. Civil Engineers moreso than Surveyors, but we are racing to catch up. Your profession needs to be more important than your career, but too many people are concerned with keeping their jobs and making upper management/the client happy at all costs, rather than doing what is right.

T.S. Higgins:

I do not believe “it’s an inability to stand up for your profession”. Most everyone can choose to practice honestly or dishonestly – they choose, as a matter of freewill, their path. LS_8750 may be onto something.

I do not think the land surveyors are predisposed to being flim-flam operators i.e. professional atavism? Probably not. However, there is certainly something wrong within the community. For example, I believe a review of the BPELSG complaint statistics makes it plainly obvious a disproportionate number of complaints are filed against the land surveyors. The annual number of engineering and land surveying complaints are nearly equal – however, there are approximately 4,200 land surveyors and more than 50,000 professional engineers. Land surveyors make up less than 10% of the licensees and yet, they have an equal amount, or more, complaints with the licensing board? A clear empirical indication there is something unwashed in the land surveying mix. Cesare Beccaria’s premise was fear of punishment prevents most crimes i.e. certainty, immediacy and severity determines of the effectiveness of the punishment. BPELSG staff washes 65% of all complaints. Nearly 7 out of 10 people escape punishment – draw your own conclusions.

During my local travels I will on occasion see a land surveying field crew going about their work. I often stop by to ask a few questions. Inevitably, the first person I approach will most always act as though they were caught in the act of stealing something i.e. minimal eye contact, short broken sentences, first name only, no business card, reluctant to give an employer or client’s name. This response firmly rests in the majority of my contacts. I make it a point to be the friendliest “is that a camera?” guy and yet, they act as though they may break into a full get away sprint at any moment.

In an effort to better understand, I have studied this very problem for many years. I have read several books on topic and in the end, I have nothing.

In general, I have learned dishonestly is a slippery slope. Once a line is crossed the line becomes flexible and a person develops an ability to rationalize their misdeeds. Frankly, you don't need to read books to learn that. If readers are interested in learning more I recommend Dan Ariely. He studied and described the mechanics of dishonesty well in his books.

T.S., if you figure it out, please let me know.

DWoolley

Dave . . .

This cuts across all professions. Doctors, lawyers, contractors, realtors, surveyors, etc.

I don’t think it is about “standing up for the profession” or “honestly” or “dishonestly”. Some just haven’t had a good mentor(s).

Example: My wife has worked over 43 years for orthopedic surgeons. A few years ago a quack, (who, by the way, lost hospital privileges where he used to operate), screwed up miserably and the patient died due to his negligence/incompetence. The ethical/competent doctors said, “we got him this time. He’ll lose his right to practice!” No. With good lawyering . . . the surgeon is still practicing. The medical profession, (nurses, doctors, etc.), know this player and would never refer someone to this quack. These people know when they hear, “Dr. Quack is going to perform my surgery”, that their outcome will not be good and more than likely they will be in for multiple surgeries to fix the Quack’s work. Same with surveying, lawyers, etc.

You might say - the public will be harmed. Well, John Q. Public called me, but decided to go “cheap”! So let the chips fall where they may. Wise consumers know you get what you pay for. As Ron White says, "you can't fix stupid".

Piece of advise: Don’t quote a “range” on your estimate. All the client will hear is the lower range of the estimate. When the survey winds up at the high end - the client “bad mouths” you to everyone and anyone. (With some - this is a Business Model. Get 'em in the door - then squeeze 'em 'til they want to bad mouth you until they meet St. Peter. And when they do meet Saint Peter - they'll give him an earfull! LOL)

During my local travels I will on occasion see a land surveying field crew going about their work. I often stop by to ask a few questions.

. .

Dave, I hope you befriend them first. Invite them to a CLSA meeting. Share your vast knowledge. Make ‘em feel like they just met Jesus/Ghandi/Francis/or somebody you’d like to have a beer with - not an Waffen-SS officer. We must to do all that we can to unite our profession.

As you pointed out . . . our profession consists of only eight percent of the licensed engineers! All the more not to divide.

Stay safe everyone. Wash your hands and wear your mask . . . and pray for a windless Fall and early rains.

Crazy Phil - Sonoma

Phil:

I understand there may be bad apples in all professions. My contention is I believe there is an exceedingly disproportionate number of bad apples in land surveying. I welcome the contrary to be shown.

The following numbers are not exact, but they are close enough to make the point.

There are 350-ish complaints filed annually. The breakdown of complaints is approximately 100 for unlicensed practice, 125 filed against civil engineers and 125 filed against land surveyors – this is an overly generous breakdown for the land surveyors to make the math easy.

There are approximately 4,200 licensed surveyors which makes the percentage with complaints 3% (125/4200) or 30 licensees per 1000.

There are approximately 50,000 professional engineers which makes the percentage with complaints 0.2% (125/50k) or 2 licensees per 1000.

The land surveyors are 15x (30/2) more likely to be in the complaint system than an engineer. Let that sink in, land surveyors are 15x more likely to be a bad apple and riding dirty than an engineer. The hard truth about the land surveying profession is in the numbers. Now consider the fact that I believe, anecdotally, most land surveyors are not reported for reportable offenses - it is probably much worse than the math indicates.

The estimated number of engineers could be off by 10,000, the geologist are insufficient in number to attribute a percentage of the complaints and lastly, the complaints attributed to land surveyor could off by 30% - which it is not - and the ultimate conclusion remains the same. I have poked around the California State Bar, California Nursing Board and the California Accountancy Board – it appears as though, in comparison, the land surveyors are in a bad apple class of their own.

If you ask BPELSG staff how many self-reported convicted felons – there is legal requirement to self-report - within the licensing ranks I believe that land surveyors tip the scales in the felon category.

Phil, I understand it may be uncomfortable as a professional land surveyor that prides himself on the knowledge, skill and most importantly, the integrity of having an honest practice to acknowledge the underbelly of the profession. It is certainly unpleasant. As long as I am practicing I intend on working towards improving the profession. The first step is acknowledging there is a problem within the profession and then, having the fortitude to takes the necessary steps to clean it up. A live and let live attitude and a shrug of the shoulders or wishing it away simply won't fix the problem. A change in BPELSG staff's enforcement policies would be a good start.

I welcome any input or opinions from readers that show my conclusions are inaccurate or faulty.

DWoolley

Dave,

You are probably correct with your numbers but there is an aspect you haven't mentioned in your comparison between engineers and surveyors.

To mention this aspect, I will make some pretend numbers...

Let's say there were 100,000 land surveying and engineering projects in California last year. There is alot more exposure for land sureyors than engineers. Dividing number of projects per year by licensed professionals is not balanced. Based on those numbers, to break that down, say each surveyor does 23 projects per year and engineers do 2 project per year.

Survey firms I have worked for handle about 150 projects a year... it is about impossible to calculate true numbers in this example, but I presume a civil engineering firm doesn't do 150 projects per year...

Also, an engineers exposure is mostly only with a client or agency if the design fails etc. (Probably more.)

A Surveyors exposure is with the initial topographic survey which the engineer bases their design and the layout of said design. A surveyor also has vulnerability between all of the neighbors for the boundary portion of the survey in relation to property lines. A survey of a standard lot in the middle of a block is surrounded 5 neighbors. Not to mention everyone on said block. That means for each project where a survey and engineer is involved, the surveyor is vulnerable of a complaint by the client and or every neighbor on the block while the engineer is vulnerable to a complaint by the client. An engineers work does not affect everyone on the block. How many neighbors file complaints on an engineer vs Surveyor? How many engineers walk up and down the block with tripods and interact with neighbors? Most of the time, an engineer doesn't even go to the site.

If I do 150 projects per year and I am exposed to a complaint from every neighbor on the block per survey (say 10 per survey on a block), I'm exposed to 1500 people per year who could possibly file a complaint. Say that engineering firm does in fact do 150 projects per year, they are only exposed to the client and agency (probably more, but for sake of argument say 3 per project), they would be exposed to 450 possible complaints per year. In comparison, that is 1050 more people that could file a complaint per year on the Surveyor vs engineer. That could explain the 15x more likely Surveyors end up in the complaint system.

How many practicing engineering firms are there vs surveying firms? How many licensees stamp, engineer vs. Surveyor. Alot of licensees work under direction of seniors especially as civils (more so at bigger firms). Just because you are licensed doesn't mean you stamp. I would guess more licensed engineers work together and under direction of seniors in comparison to surveyors.

I'm sure all of your examples are correct and I'm not arguing any of your points, but rather just shedding light to the amount of vulnerability there is in comparison. The same comparison of amount of vulnerability could be said with Doctors, lawyers etc.
I doubt for every patient a Dr has, they are vulnerable to a complaint from 10 different parties and same goes for nurses, lawyers etc.

Our decisions as surveyors affect many more parties than the decision of any other profession by comparison.

A complaint can be filed even if the law was followed and no mistakes were made.

Please disregard any typos...

Drexyl

Good points, Dave & Drexyl . . .

What is the solution to the mostly-unintentional poor practices of some? Jerk their license? Send 'em to a "re-education gulag?" Where/how are they going to get educated? And you can't legislate/dictate wisdom. Some have it. Some never will . . . unless mentored by someone who is competent and has copious experience . . . and the mentoree has at least ten years to get re-educated/experienced in all aspects of boundary determination.

Surveyors establishing a boundary is especially difficult this day 'n age, where a lot of the original/conclusive evidence is gone. Today's surveyor is more a terra-detective, than an expert-measurer.

Historical boundaries were rough. Land values weren't an issue. Accuracy versus precision was not paramount. The "blessed" stake in the ground was The Corner.

And great analogy, Drex!

One thing I am sure of . . . the ol' cliche: United we stand. Divided we fall.

Rambling Phil - Sonoma

hellsangle wrote:
What is the solution to the mostly-unintentional poor practices of some?


Rambling Phil - Sonoma

Phil:

What evidence do you have the poor practices are "mostly-unintentional"?

How are honest businesses expected to compete and survive with these dishonest surveyors' practices? If honest business cannot compete how are they expected to be around to mentor folks on honest business practices?

Drexyl:

The surveyors likely have more public contact than an engineer. How much bad public contact is there?

The complaint sources vary between the public, other licensees, attorneys etc. It takes a heck of lot to get someone to formerly file a complaint. It is commonly understood in the professional communities (land surveyors and attorneys) there is no satisfaction or recourse to be realized through BPELSG - resulting in less bonafide complaints filed. Arguably, these complaints that get filed are generally the worst the worst - attributing a small percentage to dissatisfied mean spirited or unstable clients.

DWoolley

What is your solution?

DWoolley wrote:

hellsangle wrote:
What is the solution to the mostly-unintentional poor practices of some?


Rambling Phil - Sonoma

Phil:

What evidence do you have the poor practices are "mostly-unintentional"?

How are honest businesses expected to compete and survive with these dishonest surveyors' practices? If honest business cannot compete how are they expected to be around to mentor folks on honest business practices?

DWoolley

Phil:

When you have a minute, please circle back on these questions. I am genuinely interested in your reply.

In the next couple of days I will offer some ideas for solutions.

DWoolley

Dave,

Hope all had a nice weekend and the air is a little better. We're suppose to get a change in weather up north so I pray that helps with the fires 'n air. (Nevada and Idaho will more than likely eat some of the coastal smoke in by weeks end.)

Back to your question. Unintentional means just that. They aren't intentionally doing bad work - they just don't know how to do a complicated survey with all its parts. They probably have not been mentored by someone interested in performing a court-defensible survey. Rather, I suspect, a quantity over quality employer.

So what's the solution?.

Have a good week.

Phil - Sonoma