California Surveyors Forums

https://www.xyht.com/surveying/real-surveying/

Recently found this article & thought I would share.

Interestingly, this goes back to that old thread "Measurement is Dead" and also that "SB 556 Poll" on another thread.
I cannot admit to getting through the entire "Real Surveying" article, the topic being too boring having followed the above CLSA threads.

I will say this: compartmentalizing surveying into sub-disciplines and discarding those non-boundary sub-disciplines into the technicians' sandbox is not going to end well for anybody.

Real Surveying, I would say is incorporating all sub-disciplines within the parameters of a single project.

Why pigeon-hole yourself?

I hadn't made up my mind about what to think but you make a good point. Sooner or later whatever the project something will be affected by a boundary 9 out of 10 times. Being able to resolve a boundary while incorporating all sub-disciplines as you put it would be a better way think of the land surveying profession as a whole. Technology has made some people professional button pushers & nothing more. Knowing why & not just simply how to do something does make a difference. Thanks for the reply.

My general line of thinking is that we are charged with defending the public; that's the main reason we are licensed in the first place. Boundary surveying is not the only avenue by which the public may be damaged, so the concept that licensing need not apply to work like construction staking, photogrammetry, or topographic survey is an alien concept.

Being able to push a button to get some values isn't the reason we're licensed, it's to certify the results and present the findings to the public who are thereby protected and able to make decisions in reliance on those findings.

T. S. Higgins wrote:My general line of thinking is that we are charged with defending the public; that's the main reason we are licensed in the first place. Boundary surveying is not the only avenue by which the public may be damaged, so the concept that licensing need not apply to work like construction staking, photogrammetry, or topographic survey is an alien concept.

Being able to push a button to get some values isn't the reason we're licensed, it's to certify the results and present the findings to the public who are thereby protected and able to make decisions in reliance on those findings.

Actually, as licensed land surveyors, we are not charged with defending or protecting the public. Land surveyors are tested for minimum competency to protect the public from us. I suspect you may have intended to say it similarly.

You are correct in stating land surveyors are required to "certify", meaning sign and stamp, the results of their surveys. However, in my experience, only a small percentage, estimated at 15-20%, of the work product related to "construction staking, photogrammetry, or topographic survey" is signed and stamped.

In fact, after nearly 30 years of agency oversight, I would estimate that 85% of the work product i.e. cut sheets, sketches, topographic maps, field notes, are submitted and returned to the company, unchecked and unpaid, due to a failure to provide a signature and stamp. We would routinely see private unlicensed party chiefs and survey technicians handing over work product to client/owners. I have no reason to believe this has changed in recent years.

Ask yourselves, "if land surveyors do not read, understand and comply with the law is it reasonable to expect a contractor or layperson to do so?".

The land surveying community should enjoy these last years of construction staking and topographic mapping. The community, as a whole, continues to cede ground to the trades. The community has not taken the simplest of steps to protect their practice, by signing and stamping, thereby differentiating themselves, from the trades. In fact, most of the community bows to their captors by providing them with the control required for the contractor to "Trimble" in their own work. The verb used on site is "Trimbling" rather "surveying". The contractors will continue to self perform and frankly, there isn't much to be done about it. File a complaint with BPELSG, get back to me with a story of your disappointment after they washed the case 2 to 5 years later. There are a handful of people with their sleeves rolled up tackling the problem, but it is somewhat unrealistic to think new laws will spurn aggressive enforcement when the old laws, on the books for decades, remain unenforced. However, the Orange County chapter has not surrendered hope. They will remain, perhaps on a fool's errand, on the forefront of the struggle to save the professional practice by demanding more from the professional community.

DWoolley

DWoolley wrote:

T. S. Higgins wrote:My general line of thinking is that we are charged with defending the public; that's the main reason we are licensed in the first place. Boundary surveying is not the only avenue by which the public may be damaged, so the concept that licensing need not apply to work like construction staking, photogrammetry, or topographic survey is an alien concept.

Being able to push a button to get some values isn't the reason we're licensed, it's to certify the results and present the findings to the public who are thereby protected and able to make decisions in reliance on those findings.

Actually, as licensed land surveyors, we are not charged with defending or protecting the public. Land surveyors are tested for minimum competency to protect the public from us. I suspect you may have intended to say it similarly.

You're correct, it really boils down to that we're required to perform our work in such a way that the Board isn't required to step in to protect the public by stripping us of our ability to perform protected practice. There's an assumption that work performed by a licensee can be relied upon by the public, which is more of what I was getting at with the defense of the public comment. Unfortunately, there are too many survey products being put out that the public is relying upon that are either produced by unlicensed individuals, or more concerning, by a licensee that is moonlighting or performing shoddy work for a low fee; "close enough" surveys.

DWoolley wrote: You are correct in stating land surveyors are required to "certify", meaning sign and stamp, the results of their surveys. However, in my experience, only a small percentage, estimated at 15-20%, of the work product related to "construction staking, photogrammetry, or topographic survey" is signed and stamped.

In fact, after nearly 30 years of agency oversight, I would estimate that 85% of the work product i.e. cut sheets, sketches, topographic maps, field notes, are submitted and returned to the company, unchecked and unpaid, due to a failure to provide a signature and stamp. We would routinely see private unlicensed party chiefs and survey technicians handing over work product to client/owners. I have no reason to believe this has changed in recent years.

Ask yourselves, "if land surveyors do not read, understand and comply with the law is it reasonable to expect a contractor or layperson to do so?".

The land surveying community should enjoy these last years of construction staking and topographic mapping. The community, as a whole, continues to cede ground to the trades. The community has not taken the simplest of steps to protect their practice, by signing and stamping, thereby differentiating themselves, from the trades. In fact, most of the community bows to their captors by providing them with the control required for the contractor to "Trimble" in their own work. The verb used on site is "Trimbling" rather "surveying". The contractors will continue to self perform and frankly, there isn't much to be done about it. File a complaint with BPELSG, get back to me with a story of your disappointment after they washed the case 2 to 5 years later. There are a handful of people with their sleeves rolled up tackling the problem, but it is somewhat unrealistic to think new laws will spurn aggressive enforcement when the old laws, on the books for decades, remain unenforced. However, the Orange County chapter has not surrendered hope. They will remain, perhaps on a fool's errand, on the forefront of the struggle to save the professional practice by demanding more from the professional community.

DWoolley

I understand the frustrations as far as the ground being ceded. Perhaps I'm naive enough to think it can be turned around, but I agree that it starts first at home. The race to be lowest bidder and to produce unprofessional, unstamped/signed work needs to stop. We as surveyors need to stop looking the other way when we encounter these situations, and we need to foster a better relationship with those on the Board to provide them what they need to do their job.