California Surveyors Forums

Last year I gained my PLS license and have since re-negotiated my employment, to the point where I may be required to sign documents and maps when the bosses are away. The chances of me spending the next 30+ years as an employee here aren't guaranteed. Since I would be responsible for the work I sign forever, yet may not have access to the files and calcs forever, how do you approach this with an employer? If I ever get "summoned" by the board for a job I signed as an employee, how can I guarantee access to those files? Do I keep personal copies of every job I am responsible for? I am sure there are a few members here who sign maps as an employee, what do you do to protect your future self? Would my current employers E&O cover me on the jobs I sign under his employment?

I appreciate any and all insight. Thanks.

KHuerth,

Approximately 6 years ago the Orange County practice-based chapter had an attorney draft an agreement for the professional land surveyor to contractually navigate the situation you have described. You are smart to think about the long term consequences. The agreement also addressed the issue of unfinished work e.g. no reference monuments, land surveying liability and the errors and omissions insurance for the licensee after retirement from practice. Several years ago an active CLSA member, Chris Russell, lost his license in retirement because his former firm left him hanging by not completing and filing a large record of survey with his monuments in the ground. The agreement was provided to our chapter membership free of charge.

Do you belong to a CLSA chapter? If so, ask the chapter leadership to step up and give their members a benefit by providing a similar agreement. If you are a state CLSA member and want to claim Orange County as your home chapter I will see that you get a copy of the agreement as a member benefit.

The Orange County chapter has members from Humboldt County to San Diego County, Mexico and several out of state members. If you happen hear someone disparaging the practice-based chapter or one of our members ask yourself "what has this person disparaging the OC chapter done for me or the profession?" It is a fair question.

DWoolley

I would welcome any comments from anyone in the public sector. Do you feel you are responsible for your work after you leave a public agency? Do you feel you should stamp the monuments you set? If not, why not?

Holy hijacked thread batman!

Mr. Pallamary, while I appreciate what you are trying to achieve by holding surveyors responsible for the work they perform for public agencies, please keep that discussion in the appropriate thread, this post is me looking for advice on how to approach this subject with my employer. Do you have any advice or insight that could help me with this topic, I would really appreciate it?

Mr. Wooley, yes, I am a member of the Central Coast Chapter and I will reach out to them and inquire about a similar document.

Although I have to say, if the "practice based chapter" wants to help the practice, why not share the agreement the rest of the CLSA members? Could this be a contributing reason to why some people disparage the OC Chapter? I know there is a ton of history between you and other members of the organization, but it really seems that you make it OC vs the rest of the state and that isn't a good look.

Thanks,
Kyle Huerth

Hi khuerth,

Forgive me. What is the difference? Are not surveyors who work for a public agency employees? This is not a hijack - to the contrary - it is right on point, is it not? This is what the law says:

8725.1. Legislative intent - requirement for responsible charge at state and local government entities

It is the intent of the Legislature that the licensure requirements that are imposed upon private sector professional land surveyors and land surveying partnerships, firms, or corporations shall be imposed upon the state and any city, county, city and county, district, and special district that shall adhere to those requirements. Therefore, for the purposes of Section 8725 and this chapter, at least one person authorized to practice land surveying shall be designated the person in responsible charge of professional land surveying work practiced in any department or agency of the state, city, county, city and county, district, or special district.

There is no difference, is there? You have precisely pointed out the issue I raised and it is entirely in line with your inquiry. Unless you own your own company, you are probably an employee and the law does not distinguish between employers. In fact, that is precisely why the law was revised.

For what it is worth, I had this problem after I sold my business and went to work for another company for a brief period. I kept copies of everything I signed and stamped as I needed to remain in responsible charge of everything. I did not trust them to maintain these records. At the end of the day, after I left, the company misplaced my records and did not want to file the required Records of Survey performed under my license. I had to incur those costs at my own expense. The State Board got involved and threatened to go after the licensed individuals who were in control of the records. I sued the company for the cost of preparing and filing the maps they were supposed to do. As soon as I stamped my survey, I own it for eternity.

So to assure that my comments regarding professional land surveyors remains in perspective, there is no difference between a public or private surveyor. Thus, directing my questions to public sector surveyors is the same question - they are also employees and they are not exempt from the law. They are in "responsible charge" as all licensed land surveyors are. Are we not all held to the same standards and the same laws? Thus, directing this inquiry to a public sector land surveyor is the exact same thing as directing it towards a private surveyor. In fact, your response demonstrated the basis for my comments.

There is no difference. As I have always said, we must all look out for ourselves as no one else will.

I note per the PLSA:

8703. “Responsible charge of work” defined

The phrase “responsible charge of work” means the independent control and direction, by the use of initiative, skill and independent judgment, of the observations, measurements, and descriptions involved in land surveying work. The phrase does not refer to the concept of financial liability.

8761. Signing and sealing of land surveying documents

(a) Any licensed land surveyor or civil engineer authorized to practice land surveying may practice land surveying and prepare maps, plats, reports, descriptions, or other documentary evidence in connection with that practice.

(b) All maps, plats, reports, descriptions, or other land surveying documents shall be prepared by, or under the responsible charge of, a licensed land surveyor or civil engineer authorized to practice land surveying and shall include his or her name and license number.

(c) Interim maps, plats, reports, descriptions, or other land surveying documents shall include a notation as to the intended purpose of the map, plat, report, description, or other document, such as "preliminary" or "for examination only."

(d) All final maps, plats, reports, descriptions, or other land surveying documents issued by a licensed land surveyor or civil engineer authorized to practice land surveying shall bear the signature and seal or stamp of the licensee and the date of signing and sealing or stamping. If the land surveying document has multiple pages or sheets, the signature, seal or stamp, and date of signing and sealing or stamping shall appear, at a minimum, on the title sheet, cover sheet or page, or signature sheet, unless otherwise required by law.

(e) It is unlawful for any person to sign, stamp, seal, or approve any map, plat, report, description, or other land surveying document unless the person is authorized to practice land surveying.

(f) It is unlawful for any person to stamp or seal any map, plat, report, description, or other land surveying document with the seal or stamp after the certificate of the licensee that is named on the seal or stamp has expired or has been suspended or revoked, unless the certificate has been renewed or reissued.

Here is a better answer. Yes, you keep copies of everything you sign. I have been licensed since 1980 and I signed maps and surveys for my former employer. I made copies of everything I signed and I still have those copies. If you do not have copies of that work, you need to make copies. Remember, you and you alone are responsible for your work. No one else is in responsible charge. This should not be a point of contention between you and your employer.

Being licensed as a Land Surveyor is a great honor and protecting oneself today and tomorrow is of utmost importance. Do not expect anyone is going to look out for you; they won't. Businesses come and go but hopefully, you will be around a lot longer. Your question is a good one and this is a part of land surveying often neglected.

Good luck!

khuerth wrote:Mr. Wooley, yes, I am a member of the Central Coast Chapter and I will reach out to them and inquire about a similar document.

Although I have to say, if the "practice based chapter" wants to help the practice, why not share the agreement the rest of the CLSA members? Could this be a contributing reason to why some people disparage the OC Chapter? I know there is a ton of history between you and other members of the organization, but it really seems that you make it OC vs the rest of the state and that isn't a good look.

Thanks,
Kyle Huerth

KHuerth:

Best of luck having the Central Coast chapter to draft you an agreement, sincerely. Please let us know how that works out for you.

I hadn't considered the reason a small group of malcontents disparage the OC chapter is because we do not give away our member benefits for free to nonmembers - actually more rational than most other reasons I have heard. Gives me something to consider.

The OC chapter wants more practice-minded members. We want to earn the membership by providing member benefits. The benefits are improving the practice according to the member requests i.e. providing an agreement to handle employee license liability was a specific member request in 2012. We advertise our member benefits- it makes renewals much easier.

Another member benefit, we remind the agencies every other year about the prompt payment laws and audit there prompt payment policies for each city for compliance. Public agency client not paying you? The OC chapter can help you and the agency better understand the laws. Today most agencies are proud of their compliance and welcome the prompt payment questions. Do you have a hard time competing with land surveyors that are breaking the law by not filing records of survey? The OC chapter can help you. If everything is awesome with your survey practice and your chapter addresses your every concern, please carry on. Alternatively, if your CLSA consist of a monthly rubber chicken dinner and some place to grumble about the current state of affairs, the OC Chapter or some malarkey about getting the kids interested in land surveying, please carry on.

DWoolley

Addendum:

It has been reported to me:

At the last state meeting there was much handwringing over why people were not renewing or signing up to begin with at the state level. A director from the OC chapter asked “Why would they? What are we offering membership? That's the real question. Let's give the land surveyors reasons why they should be a member. Let's do things for them directly related to what they do every day and helps their practices.” (Crickets) Reverting back to gripes and complaints.

Going forward:

Personally, I find it odd, the message appears to be "we aren't going to do anything and neither should you".

I will continue to say - join the Orange County Practice-Based Chapter. They are working to earn your membership, we aren’t asking you why you aren't a member - that is a question you can ask yourself.

Hat tip to those that signed up with the practice-based chapter this week to get a copy of the agreement. Welcome aboard. We appreciate your membership and hope to earn it again next year.

DWoolley

Please enlighten me DWoolley,

Being that I am a member in good standing why is that I am not entitled to the same benefits as an OC chapter member? I chose my chapter because they allow me to be connected to local surveyors and to strengthen my community which I believe is the whole point of choosing a "local" chapter. However, my chapter is far smaller than probably the majority of chapters and therefore does not have the resources and manpower to generate the same level of support that yours is capable of generating. So, my question to you, if your chapter houses resources ( let's use the "copy of the agreement" as an example) that would benefit all members of the CLSA, why should it be guarded from other members, chapters of the same collective?

I am not Dave, so wait for him.

As far as I know/remember you can belong to more than one chapter.
True, your physically local chapter is important in many ways.

mpallamary wrote:I would welcome any comments from anyone in the public sector. Do you feel you are responsible for your work after you leave a public agency? Do you feel you should stamp the monuments you set? If not, why not?

As an agency employee: Absolutely. I carry E&O insurance for myself, and stamp all monuments set with my license number. I also keep copies of all my work as well as scanned copies of the field notes for future use if necessary.

I'd suggest the same for anyone stamping and signing documents, either as an employee of a public agency or a private firm. Carry your own insurance and maintain personal records.

All,
Little background on me. I am California licensed and I still enjoy keeping up with California survey practices via the CLSA board. I am now a City Surveyor in southern Oregon and have much of the same concerns as stated in the OP and had them when employed as a private Land Surveyor.

I commend KHuerth for thinking out of the box and asking real questions that may affect your professional practice when you least expect it. I made up my mind when I was licensed that I would not stamp unless I had ownership in the company I was stamping for. That may seem short sighted and unfair to my employer but it never caused an issue in my 20 year employment in the private side, and worked out fine for me. When I became a City Surveyor I did not think about it as much because of state law indemnifying public officers. Then a few years ago the state AG put out an opinion regarding State Boards authority over County Surveyors. That got me thinking again about what exposure I may have after leaving the city as I get closer to retirement. Especially considering that Oregon has statue of limitations of 10 years from date of discovery.

So with that said. I went online and signed up for my out of state membership of CLSA (100$) and received my copy of DRAFT EMPLOYMENT AGREEMENT within hours along with a nice introductory letter into the Orange County chapter. I personally find this an excellent value and donation considering all I gain by the efforts from the CLSA including the Orange County Chapter and their excellent newsletter. In fact I feel much better about myself not being a free loader anymore:).
Good day, Jon

P.s.
Mr. Pallamary, Re: stamping mon's set. it is the same in Oregon, “if the monument is set by a public officer, the monument must be marked with the official title of the office.” (ORS 209.250(8)).” Our maps have our stamp and if we set a mon we must file a map. But I agree, public officials are not held to the same standard as private licensees and should be.

Thank you Proud7191. I appreciate your comments. I also applaud you for doing the right thing. As you know government indemnification does not protect your license. Sadly, some use it as an excuse to do poor work.

The OC Chapter is doing a good job!

TheLostSurveyor wrote:Please enlighten me DWoolley,

Being that I am a member in good standing why is that I am not entitled to the same benefits as an OC chapter member? I chose my chapter because they allow me to be connected to local surveyors and to strengthen my community which I believe is the whole point of choosing a "local" chapter. However, my chapter is far smaller than probably the majority of chapters and therefore does not have the resources and manpower to generate the same level of support that yours is capable of generating. So, my question to you, if your chapter houses resources ( let's use the "copy of the agreement" as an example) that would benefit all members of the CLSA, why should it be guarded from other members, chapters of the same collective?

Hi, I have been a member of CLSA for 40 years. For many of these years, I was very active and spent a lot of time donating my time and resources for the benefit of the association. I have raised more money for individual chapters and education than the vast majority of members. Over the last five to ten years, I have submitted a number of items and documents, like the one Dave Woolley discussed, to the Executive Board. Unfortunately, nothing was done with them. I no longer send anything as no one looks at them or does anything with them. This is, of course, because I raised a number of serious issues regarding CLSA's financial status and past activities. Everything I expressed concerns about has been validated and the association seems to be on better financial standing and the books are being properly maintained. In return, the prior officers have vilified me for bringing attention to these very serious problems. What kind of leadership is that? Did you ever read the letter the "past presidents" sent to me for pointing these issues out?

In any event, I am in San Diego and I joined the Orange County Chapter because things are getting done. It is not an issue of guarding anything - it is all about the rewards of hard work. The folks in OC work very hard and devote time and resources to worthy causes. Many of the chapter members also worked on the financial problems and they too were ostracized for asking questions. Assuming, arguendo, that the other chapters should be entitled to the employment agreement, why should they not be looking at the financial documents? It is not the size of the chapter that matters, it is the strength of the individual that counts.

CLSA has great potential if there is leadership and transparency at the state level.

At this time, I would recommend you volunteer to serve as a director so you can effect change at the state level. I was a director many years ago and I found it rewarding. I made sure many things were done because I worked hard alongside others of an equal mind. Set aside ten or twenty hours a month on behalf of CLSA and effectuate change. That is how things get done.

You can also support the OC Chapter as they listen and take action.

MJP - I echo TS Higgins' response to your question to public sector surveyors. If I set a monument in connection to State work, my # goes on it. It is then reflected on a RS, which I also sign and stamp. There are one or two others from my agency who check in here on a regular or occasional basis. They too sign & stamp maps they file, descriptions they write, etc.

I believe that asking such questions on a forum like this, among the public sector surveyors who frequent it, you are preaching to the choir. I am also aware that there are plenty of surveyors with other state and local agencies who feel that hiding from responsible charge within the anonymity of an agency is valid, necessary, or at least a benefit they should be entitled to. I've never heard a good argument to support those views. Most that approach any measure of reasonableness apply equally to the private sector as they do the public sector.


LostSurveyor - There are many advantages to being a member of CLSA as a state corporate member, and there may or may not be advantages to membership in any given chapter. Some chapters come up with ideas that they believe would be of value to membership. Often, those ideas are first brought to the State association. Also quite often, there seems to be little interest in some of those ideas among other chapters. The OC chapter seems to bring the most ideas forward, and in doing so, also has the most ideas rejected or ignored by the rest of the organization.

Sometimes, the Board of Directors agrees its a good idea and votes to have the appropriate committee work on it. In many cases, that's a more effective way to kill an idea than to kick it back to a chapter. Everyone agrees it's a good idea, but no one wants to devote any of their own time, energy or resources to help move it forward.

Too many in the CLSA appear to take the attitude that "the CLSA should do X for its members" without ever allowing themselves to recognize that all officers and committee members are uncompensated, dues paying members just like all other members. Nothing happens in a volunteer organization without enough members volunteering to help get things done.

If you think that when a chapter takes it upon itself to motivate a sufficient number of its members to help get things done at the chapter level when they're not getting done at the state level, that the chapter should be required to provide the fruits of all those efforts to the larger organization that was unable or unwilling to contribute to the effort, then you have a sense of entitlement that I don't share.

I am not presently a member of the OC chapter, nor have I been in the past, but I admire their ability to move matters of importance, interest, and advantage to the profession forward. I do not begrudge them for providing additional benefits to their chapter members which are not available at the state level as long as those benefits are not contrary to the goals of the state organization. Nothing within the CLSA would please me more than if all chapters were as vibrant and active as the OC chapter and that all of the benefits available to the members of that chapter were available to all CLSA members - not as some additional benefit that no additional members are willing to step forward and help make happen, but because all chapters pull their weight equally in proportion to their local membership. Until then, if another chapter has prepared materials that are of use to me in my practice, I have no problem paying whatever nominal charge they ask to have access to what I had no part in making happen. And I'd be thankful that others had the time and put forth the effort to make them available.

If you were to go to an attorney to draft an effective employment agreement for you, I expect that you would have a very difficult time finding a competently prepared agreement for less than $1000.

As long as moving forward with such an idea is not to the detriment of the broader organization, why shouldn't an individual chapter move forward with some of those ideas on their own.

Rather than griping that someone else has something that you contributed no effort or resources toward to make available, why not work on getting your chapter, or the state association to provide the same or similar benefits? And by that I mean participate in a committee and provide direct effort to the cause (not just to have your name on a committee roster or to merely say you will help only to make yourself scarce when committee members are asked to put in some work).


Khuerth - Having been in the situation myself, I believe that having an agreement about the work performed under your license for an employer, in terms of retained copies of maps and other records, and/or relative to compensation for having to return to defend or answer for that work after leaving the organization's employment, and having access to project records in such case is a very good idea.

As far as access to records goes, in the public sector, we can get access via the PRA law if necessary. In the private sector, most employers want to maintain ownership of all records. That seems reasonable. But so does the employed licensee having the right to copies of all maps he or she signs, as does having access to project records and a right to reasonable compensation should the need ever arise for that licensee to return to work on such a project in any capacity, be it in answer to a claim of negligence or to consult with a successor licensee in the agency to bring them up to speed on specific project issues.

Good stuff Evan!

khuerth- I apologize as I did in fact hijack your post here, it would seem. I hope you have attained the answers you were looking for ,

mp- thank you very much for your experience based perspective. I have gathered from previous posts that these were prevalent issues; however, it is nice to get a summary to cap it off. I appreciate your many contributions to this board. I am still in my first year of membership and have not attained my license yet, so until I better understand the direction and current issues within the CLSA, I do not believe my stepping up would quite yet be the best for the CLSA. As I grow as a surveyor and member I will look for as many opportunities as I can to help my local chapter.

E_PAGE- Also, thank you very much for your experience and time.

"Nothing within the CLSA would please me more than if all chapters were as vibrant and active as the OC chapter and that all of the benefits available to the members of that chapter were available to all CLSA members"

I firmly agree with you here as this why I asked the question. Because I did not realize that it was not like this. nothing would make me happier than to put forth efforts to help unify chapters and resources. I'm sure experience has taught others differently, but I do not see any reason why the chapters should not have communications with each other and reach out to other chapters when a joint effort is needed to help bring an idea to fruition that might aid the profession and its professional community as a whole. And I have absolutely no problem with compensating another chapter for the fruits of its labors until such time comes that the chapters are a more unified force. There is no sense of entitlement here, only exploration for better understanding and solutions.

LostSurveyor - I didn't realize you were commenting from the perspective of lacking background and understanding of the organizational structure. Sorry if I came off being harsh.

There are many times that chapters partner to address regional issues and can often be more effective at it than the state association as they have more focused motivation to deal with the matter.

From what I've seen, the OC chapter is the most proactive in working with other chapters, and has often made open invitation to other chapters to address particular issues or to help other chapters get certain chapter programs (such as Professional Practices Committee) up and running. I believe that is one of the reasons their chapter membership includes many from other areas of the state and many out of state, and why their chapter represents something like 15% of total CLSA membership (about twice that of next largest chapter).

Being unlicensed and fairly new to CLSA limits which rules you are able to fill, but does not preclude you from helping on many committees at both state and local level.

If you have an interest in doing more to be part of making CLSA work, PM me. We can talk about appropriate committees and roles for a member in your circumstances. It would be a great way for you to jump start your learning about the organization, and in some cases, in preparing you for licensure.

E-Page- I have been a field surveyor for 12 years or so. You would have to go very far out of your way to ruffle my feathers as I am quite used to the fact that any surveyor worth his salt is likely to have a very strong opinion about most things. As for your offer, sending you a PM now.
thanks

Evan is right! Get involved! Make a difference; make a contribution!

The mere fact that you are engaging like this is wonderful. Jump in and help the organization advance and prosper!

Sidetracks, promotions and bloviations noted, however back to Kyle’s original question. It could go without saying that the question is 2 parts, civil liability and licensure compliance. The 2nd part is pretty straight forward, in that if your LS # is on it, you are obligated to ensure full compliance with the LS Act regardless of changes in employment.
The 1st part is much more complicated. Private sector employees should be able to expect E&O coverage for their work performed under a company’s umbrella, even after leaving said company. Sadly, this is not always the case. For example I know of a land survey firm that operated for close to 30 years and had upwards of 10 crews at any one time that only pulled E&O policies when procurring certain projects. For the bulk of their years operating they never carried it. As another example a company I once worked for closed its doors. At that point the E&O premiums stopped being paid.
My advice is to be intimately aware of the specifics of your employment contracts, the company’s insurance pilicies (auto included if you use your own vehicle regularly or on occasion), and consider whether commercial coverage for yourself may be warranted.

"Sidetracks, promotions and bloviations noted,"

Most of that latest post was actually helpful. But inspite of the fact that he has the knowledge and ability to make positive contributions, magee always has to include something to remind us of what a bitter and hateful person he is. Disappointing.