California Surveyors Forums

The question came up: If a surveyor signed a map prior to the expiration date of his/her license, but the map didn't record until after the expiration date and the surveyor let his/her license lapse, is the surveyor's signature on the map still valid?

Thanks.

Yep - just as good as a notary's signature prior to that expiration date.

I suppose if the surveyor didn't submit the final map for processing until after the expiration date, there might be an issue, but there is a grace period - quite lengthy, actually. The expiration date is for payment of the renewal fee - it takes a process for the license to "lapse". As always, intent plays a part.

SPMPLS wrote:The question came up: If a surveyor signed a map prior to the expiration date of his/her license, but the map didn't record until after the expiration date and the surveyor let his/her license lapse, is the surveyor's signature on the map still valid?

Thanks.

Generally speaking, yes. That is one of the primary reasons why a date of signing is required in addition to the signature and seal. When the map records is irrelevant.

Warren Smith wrote:Yep - just as good as a notary's signature prior to that expiration date.

I suppose if the surveyor didn't submit the final map for processing until after the expiration date, there might be an issue, but there is a grace period - quite lengthy, actually. The expiration date is for payment of the renewal fee - it takes a process for the license to "lapse". As always, intent plays a part.

There isn't a "grace period". The license lapses on the expiration date and the person is no longer authorized to practice until payment of the renewal fee is received by the Board in accordance with Board Rules. There is a "grace period" for not having to pay a delinquent fee, but no such allowance for authorization.

Again, if the license is valid as of the date of signing, it is a valid signature.

Thanks for clarifying that Ric. I was caught up in the context of the question, and whether a dated signature would still be valid.

Interestingly, PLSA section 8803.1 (b) covers the eventuality of an expired license which is later renewed:

"(b) The work performed by the licensee during a period of expiration or delinquency shall be deemed lawful and validly performed as to persons or entities other than the licensee."

Ric7308 wrote:

SPMPLS wrote:The question came up: If a surveyor signed a map prior to the expiration date of his/her license, but the map didn't record until after the expiration date and the surveyor let his/her license lapse, is the surveyor's signature on the map still valid?

Thanks.

Generally speaking, yes. That is one of the primary reasons why a date of signing is required in addition to the signature and seal. When the map records is irrelevant.

You would not believe how many maps and plans I review from surveyors and civil engineers that do not include the date that they signed and stamped the plans. With the advent of electronic signatures and seals, it has become even worse. I've gotten to the point that I've given up on making the comment. It should be the licensee's job to educate their draftsman, not mine.

Warren Smith wrote:Interestingly, PLSA section 8803.1 (b) covers the eventuality of an expired license which is later renewed:

"(b) The work performed by the licensee during a period of expiration or delinquency shall be deemed lawful and validly performed as to persons or entities other than the licensee."

8803.1 is intended to protect the public and its use of a licensee's product. Once a license is reinstated, all work done during the delinquency time is considered valid for any other purpose (i.e., civil litigation, liability, etc.) but not for Board-related issues such as practicing without a license or other disciplinary matters. The real trigger on this section is IF the license is reinstated. Its not the most well written section in the PLS Act or the PE Act.

dedkad wrote:

Ric7308 wrote:

SPMPLS wrote:The question came up: If a surveyor signed a map prior to the expiration date of his/her license, but the map didn't record until after the expiration date and the surveyor let his/her license lapse, is the surveyor's signature on the map still valid?

Thanks.

Generally speaking, yes. That is one of the primary reasons why a date of signing is required in addition to the signature and seal. When the map records is irrelevant.

You would not believe how many maps and plans I review from surveyors and civil engineers that do not include the date that they signed and stamped the plans. With the advent of electronic signatures and seals, it has become even worse. I've gotten to the point that I've given up on making the comment. It should be the licensee's job to educate their draftsman, not mine.

Yes, we know. It is a real problem and one many licensees don't seem to understand. However, I don't believe it has anything to do with the draftsman. This is all on the licensee as that is the person responsible for complying with the law.

I have been in business for 35 years and over this course of time, I have employed a large number of employees. Throughout this period, at the end of the day, I am and remain completely responsible for every document that goes out the door; I am 100% responsible.

There are a lot of burdens and duties associated with being the licensee in responsible charge. The corollary to this is "span of control." Regardless of the burden, it is mine and mine alone. There are provisions for these issues.