California Surveyors Forums

After reading on another surveyors forum this statement ...

...we have read that Idaho, Maryland, New York, Tennessee, Washington and "many other states" are using the NCEES model law to push for the removal of the boundary experience requirement for licensure.

I think that it would change our profession drastically that if each state specific exam had a test section for boundary solutions that are based solely on case law. Maybe some states do, I don't know. I do know that the current mentors are lacking in the rudimentary basics of boundary retracements. This is evident in a recent survey post and also quite evident just examining the records filed in the last 10 years or so.

Old school mentors are just quitting the profession or simply passing on. As they go, so goes the knowledge of how to retrace a boundary.

I've seen it too, a lot more than fifteen hundredths.

Surveyor sets a redwood post for a 1/16th corner in 1890. In the 1940s a Deed begins at the 1/16th corner, thence east 500'. There is a fence close to 500' east of the redwood post. But in the 1980s a Surveyor breaks down the Section and sets a dimension point for the 1/16th corner about 90' west and 90' north. In the 1990s another surveyor monuments the 1/16th corner on a Corner Record. In the 2000s owner of 500' tract gets in dispute with neighbor to east. 500's surveyor does an inadequate job and apparently never was called to testify while the other surveyor just does a deed stakeout 90' west of the fence, of course he testifies and the Judge gets led down the primrose path.

The first and most basic concept of Deed surveying is it should be interpreted in light of the circumstances at the time it was written. A more recent monument should not control an earlier Deed, this is fundamental.

The second concept is the Courts rely on us for guidance and advice because we are supposed to be the experts.

Dave posted:
"A more recent monument should not control an earlier Deed, this is fundamental."


I am not so sure about that. Goes back to the old argument that a junior corner cannot bend a senior line.

I don't buy it. Again, my multiple 1/16th cors. that I have set to mark the boundaries between Federal and Private land is an example of junior corners bending a senior line.....if found to be off that senior line.

And I don't mean, off the senior line by a finger length distance, but could be more.

Think about it this way, most of your corner monuments being set now are probably junior corners where you are retracing a senior line and setting new monuments on that line. Is it then possible that your corner monuments are always subject to move?

Keithwill's post is very interesting for those of us who have never monumented a federal boundary, and are less experienced.

1) I assume this type of survey is done to BLM standards and reviewed and approved by BLM?

2) This doesn't seem like "bending" the line. There was already an existing intent that a monument be set between the 1/4 corners, with laws and written procedures that allow for acceptable error in placement. So my first thought is that this is different, more like completing the survey.

3) If the private survey was found later not to meet BLM accuracy standards and resulted in less land for the feds...I assume it would be decided by lawyers at that point whether the monument would hold?

the 1940's deed and fence line based on the 1890 redwood post is what should have been used for the property line, not the more recent monument based on what should never be.

Makes sense to me. How can a 1980's survey as described by Karoly establish this line that was previously set in the 1940's off a redwood post set in 1890?

"Goes back to the old argument that a junior corner cannot bend a senior line."

I think that it is not so much as the junior corner can't bend the senior line, (cause I guess sometimes they do somewhere) but should it? I would think not.

The senior line "should" hold, and just cause sometimes, somewhere that isn't the case, doesn't mean that it "shouldn't" hold.

Do Lawyers have survey authority?

Keithwill wrote:Do Lawyers have survey authority?

I was told during a class on legal descriptions that lawyers and title officers have the right to write a legal description. I've always wondered if that was true and under what authority.

dedkad wrote:I was told during a class on legal descriptions that lawyers and title officers have the right to write a legal description. I've always wondered if that was true and under what authority.

They have the right to use legal descriptions in the preparation of their documents, but not to write one.

Keithwill asked:

Do Lawyers have survey authority?

Only those individuals expressly authorized (i.e., Licensed Land Surveyor, Pre-1982 Civil Engineer) or expressly exempted from licensing (i.e., Employee of Federal Government working on federal lands) have the authority in California. I believe it is pretty much similar elsewhere but there may be some differences in other jurisdictions.

dedkad

I was told during a class on legal descriptions that lawyers and title officers have the right to write a legal description. I've always wondered if that was true and under what authority.

There was a thread on this back in Nov. 2012. But T.S. Higgins summarized it well.

It was sort of a facetious question....in response to those who want to turn the problem over to a lawyer!

I thought we had this discussion before?

http://www.californiasurveyors.org/cals ... urv129.pdf

Happy New Year, all . . .

Phil - Sonoma

I was called in to be an "expert witness" on a legal case several years ago. The case involved an individual who hit a post while water skiing in the delta. Unfortunately he became a paraplegic due to the accident. The lawyers wanted to find out if the "post" was on a certain property (for obvious reasons). A month before the case, I was called upon to survey the subject property and provide enough topographic information to validate where the questionable "post" was relative to our client's property. The boundary/topo exhibit was crucial to the case and was key evidence in showing that the post was not on our clients property and, if fact was several hundred feet away from the subject property. While being grilled by the lawyer, he asked "Mr. Walters, if I were to take this exhibit, could I survey this boundary and conclude the same results?" I replied "no sir you could not, you would need to be a Licensed Land Surveyor in order to do that". The judge chuckled, the lawyer stopped with questions, case was concluded, our client won.