California Surveyors Forums

Dave Woolley and Mike Pallamary.

• How dare you question how our Association is being run?
• How dare you ask for an accounting of our Association's finances?
• How dare you stand up for the members of the Association?
• How dare you take all the abuse, name calling, and lack of respect that your actions have caused?
• How dare you make me give a darn?
• How dare you make me vote NO on all amendments?

If our Associations elected leaders and chapter representatives do not change the way things are done, then maybe it's time for them all to be replaced by ones that can think for themselves.

Any effective Association is supposed to be run by the Board of elected leaders and chapter representatives. The administrator's position is to take care of the day to day operations of the association at the direction of the Board. I'm suspecting that this may not be the way things are being done.

I like lamb to eat, but I don't take to kindly to sheep.

Well put Ruel del Castillo. Thanks!

One of the issues I have raised over the years involves CLSA acquiring some assets. Years ago Paul Cuomo and I put together an outline for purchasing a building. This idea was nixed and discouraged. Over the last ten years, CLSA has brought in about $5M. Is this not a logical thing to think about? I think we own a Xerox machine - I can't get a straight answer to any of this. Does anyone out there know if we own any assets and what they are? We don't own the Central Office. Many people thought we did.

Stanmyron wrote:You mentioned approximately $5m in revenue over a 10 year period. Do you know what expenses were over that same time frame? To me, that is equally as important to know and in some cases more important.

Was the idea you previously submitted before this 10 year time frame?

Given the nature of our current discussions about the role everyone plays in the association, who would actually be the owner(s) of this building (asset)?

If the association folds, how does the law allow for liquidation?

I don't know if it is logical or appropriate.

The better question to ask is clarification of revenue. Mike, when you speak of revenue, do you possibly mean net income (i.e. revenue less expenses)? I understand that we all have a basic understanding of how the financial system works but we aren't CPA's.

Stanmyron, I think that your questions regarding liquidation of assets is something that the organization should consult an attorney specializing in non-profit corporations.

You wouldn't happen to know any would you StanMyron?

Hi Bryan, I make it a habit of not responding to unidentified parties so my reply is directed to you. I have owned and operated a successful business for some 30 years and I have co-managed a significant real estate portfolio. As with my business finances and my personal finances, I always evaluate my investments and business opportunities. You are correct as to needing a qualified CPA to assist in evaluating financing matters. I happen to use two of them in complex affairs so that I get a full story. I know something about cash flow and leverage and how real estate investment works. I suspect we all do.

According to the County Records, Dorothy Calegari owns the building that CLSA headquarters are located in. As I said, I always thought purchasing a building would be a smart investment like they did back in Massachusetts with their association. Given the recent appreciation in real estate, it would have been a smart move. In any event, take a look at the attached and let me know your thoughts. This is one of the reason for my inquiries.

One more thing Bryan. This type of advice is the type of thing I would expect out of an Executive Director. The more one asks, the more questions surface. I think spending money on an audit and getting some independent tax advice would be money well spent instead of CLSA having to lawyer up like this. So many questions......

mpallamary wrote:One more thing Bryan. This type of advice is the type of thing I would expect out of an Executive Director. The more one asks, the more questions surface. I think spending money on an audit and getting some independent tax advice would be money well spent instead of CLSA having to lawyer up like this. So many questions......

I tend to agree, when was the last time CLSA was audited if ever?

Give up the charade!!

Stanmyron wrote:Rejoin CLSA!

Why? Give me some good reasons as to why I should stay with CLSA Stanmyron. At this point I do not see a productive and informed representation of what the profession really is from the Central Office.

All I see are private and secret meetings along with a lack of transparency which is no way to run a non-profit. Transparency is key to keeping the organization on the steadfast path of representing the profession and not individual ideologies.

I have the BOD telling me one thing without providing me all of the information and then I have a few members who are asking for the simplest of items, especially from a non-profit and not receiving them. Instead they get this double talk BS that is reserved I though only for politicians.

Why does CLSA not put out an annual report for the public to view out of curiousity? I think this would help with providing some light into the organization as well as set well thought out goals in both the short term and long term periods of the association.

Although I cannot vote on the bylaws, I hope they get shut down for the sake of those involved in the organization.

'Stanmyron',

Your posts remind me of the Lightsquared debate a couple of years ago. I followed several discussions on various technical sites (Ars Technica is one that comes to mind) about the merits and technical pros and cons on either side of that discussion. At the time, there were a number of posters who would not identify themselves or their professional affiliations. The real kicker was that they really got in and badgered ANY responses that came back questioning anything against Lightsquared. It was so obvious that they were professional shills for Lightsquared, and they really did nothing to foster good discussion on the issue.

Let me be clear that this is just an observation on a memory you triggered. Without posting your credentials, we are left to think what we will. The fact that you don't seem worried about rectifying this in any way leaves me to come to my own conclusions.

I am not part of this debate to blindly support Mike Pallamary or Dave Wolley or the OC Chapter, though all of these entities have earned my professional respect through various means. In my case, I just want some answers to some of my questions about this ballot we are discussing. My thanks go out to Armand and the Forum Admin for their postings that have come up with substantive answers to some of these questions, and not just invective that my chapter directors have somehow let me down by not communicating things properly. My frustrations with this whole debate are with the evident breakdown at several levels of the organization that has lead us here, as many of us, who would consider themselves 'active' members of the organization, are only now getting hit with these issues brought about by this ballot.

On a related matter, how often are the CLSA management and Executive Director contracts put out for competitive proposals? Is there a formal process in place to ensure that we're receiving good value for the money spent?

I am not comfortable with CLSA being headquartered in a building owned by the executive director. How is she supposed to keep her personal interests separate from those of the organization? If this is true, we do need to take a closer look at things.

What do you think Mr. Myron?

Hi Mark,

With regards to who owns what, these are valid questions and they warrant a reply - they do not warrant character assassination. CLSA takes in about half a million dollars a year and I believe we should have a full accounting of every penny. It would be nice to know what we can do and how that money is used. Indeed I declare that money to be mine and yours; it is CLSA money and I believe that some of us are smart enough to figure out how to use it, maybe in better ways. The only way we will ever understand these things is to ask questions. I have attached the last few year's tax returns. For starters, take a look at the names of the officers listed. These federally filed forms claim we have no chapters. What is that all about? These are civil questions and nothing more. I believe I have a right to get answers as does every member across the state.

These forms are supposed to be reviewed by the BOD. Clearly that is not the case as there are so many blatant errors and discrepancies.

I submit them for your perusal recognizing that in doing so, I will be subject to attack and my "loyalty" to the association will be challenged.

For those of you who will be meeting to discuss the bylaws, if you have the time, perhaps you can discuss the tax records. You don't need a lawyer to do that.

Interesting Reading:

http://www.nonprofitcenters.org/uploads ... ef3efa.pdf

http://www.nonprofitcenters.org/uploads ... 5a1ca9.pdf

For a non-profit, non-union trade org, the mgmt appears to want to keep a lot of their activities private (among themselves) and not share it with the membership.


Reminds me of this note I saw

If you are not doing anything wrong why are you concerned about the govt eavesdropping on you?

or in this case,
If you are not doing anything wrong why are you concerned about the membership asking questions?

Pest exterminators know an easy way to identify cockroaches- they just shine a light and see which ones run for cover. Might work for us too. : )

As I asked in another thread:

Who is Stan Myron and where's he from?

I can't find him in the Board's license lookup, so he's probably not licensed. The three Myron listed are either cancelled or deceased.


I also choose to not interact with unknown persons who sound very much like a shill for others!

Where is a copy of the contract for services that CLSA has with the Executive Director? Can someone post it on this forum?

How much is CLSA paying for rent at the Central Office location and what all is located there?

What kind of arrangement does the Executive Director have with CLSA, as far as use of the rented office space? ( How many hours a week does she spend there, working on CLSA related matters?)

Does she do work for the other associations that she manages from that same office?

Does she receive additional compensation from CLSA such as a vehicle or office equipment and/or support staff?

Is there an accounting of where ALL of the organization's money is being spent? I assume there must be, but I'm not clear on that based on some of the questions being asked by others.

**I'm not an attorney or a cpa and don't care to be one**

Thank you!

There may be as many as 7 organizations running out of the Central Office. I believe there are two other surveying organizations. This is based upon some business reports, all of which should be verified. I have asked the same question as I wanted to know if the equipment that has been purchased by CLSA is used for other businesses. Of course, those questions remain unanswered. You might want to ask Jim Herrick as he has been reported as the association's Chief Financial Officer and has been for a long time. Robert Reese has been reported as the association president for many years so he might know what is going on. That is what the filed tax returns report.

Thank you Mr. Pallamary.

I think you may have pointed this out before, but according to the copy of the tax return that you posted, the executive director is not compensated, even though said tax form clearly states that the director's compensation is to be listed, and does not make any exceptions for a director being retained as in independent contractor. On that note, is it common practice in the industry for executive directors NOT to be actual employees of the organization? Seems overly complicated to me, and the possibly inaccurate tax return seems to indicate such.

Once again, I'm not a cpa or a tax attorney, so I hope I'm not offending anyone by making these observations.

Respectfully,

The following is my response and my response alone. It does not reflect any official opinion. I am posting this as a response to the comments being made. Due to the volume of work facing me at the moment, I am unable to spend much time posting here. This is being done to clear up some of the misunderstandings being perpetuated.

I am not singling out Mark Moore. His was simply a well put together post with a series of questions that could be answered.

Thank you, Mark.

Incidentally, I will be attending the Sacramento Chapter Monthly Meeting tomorrow night at Logan’s Steakhouse in Natomas. I will be there to answer questions and engage in a dialogue relative to By Laws, and other issues that may be of interest to members attending. I look forward to seeing you there…

(Note: I tried to differentiate questions and responses by using italics for my responses, but VBL is not available on our Forum)



Q: Where is a copy of the contract for services that CLSA has with the Executive Director? Can someone post it on this forum?

A: This has already been done at the Board of Director’s meeting a few meetings ago.

Q: How much is CLSA paying for rent at the Central Office location and what all is located there?

A: Nothing. We do not pay rent. In much the same way you do not pay rent to your attorney or CPA, CLSA does not pay rent to AMS (Association Management Services). AMS is Dorothy Calegari’s company. AMS provides services to other associations, just as your attorney and CPA provide services to other clients.

Q: What kind of arrangement does the Executive Director have with CLSA, as far as use of the rented office space? ( How many hours a week does she spend there, working on CLSA related matters?)

A: There are no arrangements for use of rented office space. AMS provides office space as part of their services when AMS works on CLSA tasks. As for hours spent, the number of hours Dorothy will spend on CLSA business is not stipulated in the contract. It likely is not stipulate in the contract you have with your attorney or CPA, either.

Does she do work for the other associations that she manages from that same office?

A: Yes. AMS provides management service for a number of other organizations, including West Fed (WFPS).

Q: Does she receive additional compensation from CLSA such as a vehicle or office equipment and/or support staff?

A: No. Dorothy is not an employee of CLSA. CLSA does not have any employees.

Q: Dorothy is an employee/officer of AMS. AMS receives only the contracted fees and expenses.

CLSA actually owns the color copier/printer located in the AMS office. As anyone can see from the financial reports given at each Board Meeting, that copier has been included as a CLSA asset since we purchased it. The benefits of owning or leasing the copier were fully discussed by the Directors at the time. After the research and deliberations, the Directors voted to purchase the copier/printer.

The other organizations AMS works for pay us for each copy/print they run. In my first Treasurer’s report, Directors will remember me jokingly asking for a motion to direct AMS employees to push color copies over black and white print as the mark up on color is significantly higher. The Directors will also remember my note of the fact at my last Treasurer’s Report that the number of color prints was up significantly and I thanked AMS employees for taking my message to heart.

Q: Is there an accounting of where ALL of the organization's money is being spent? I assume there must be, but I'm not clear on that based on some of the questions being asked by others.

A: There is an accounting of all moneys, income and expenditures at each and every Board Meeting. It is one of the “highlightsâ€￾ of being the Treasurer. The budget is reviewed and, based on legitimate needs, the budget may be adjusted – at the direction of the Directors.

The financial reports are included in every Director’s Board Meeting Agenda for them to review and share with their Chapter. Since the Directors are responsible for the management of funds, the Directors should be reviewing the reports and presenting questions during the Treasurer’s Report at each Board Meeting. As members, ask your Directors for copies or explanations. Send them to the Board Meetings with your questions. That is the forum for such discussions.

Incidentally, thank you to my wife for her tutelage in understanding the financial reports and providing me an independent education. This month marks our wedding anniversary (as well as her birthday). I have known Laura for more than 39 years, now. During all of that time, apart from being a wonderful wife and mother, she has kept books for medical firms, engineering firms and third party benefits administrators. I consider her very competent and one of my favorite teachers.

**I'm not an attorney or a cpa and don't care to be one**

Mark:

Very quickly, one common misconception that many have about our organization is that it is BIG!

In fact, it’s really quite small in size with a compact membership and limited financial resources.

On the opposite end of the spectrum is the National Association of Music Merchants. My wife’s sister’s husband’s cousin’s husband (very close relationship) is the Executive Director. He is an employee of NAMM and is paid quite handsomely. Their annual conference makes ours look rather anemic (no offense to Dorothy or Crissy, but a budget that allows for entertainers such as Martina McBride and Keith Urban is clearly bigger than our budget). NAMM also has its own building and a rather large staff but their monthly income is more than our annual income.

Question: Would you be a fulltime Executive Director of our organization for less than $100,000? Neither would I. We simply do not have the budget for that kind of salary for an ED.

As I recall, Curt Sumner was a paid part-time employee of ACSM as the Executive Director. That didn’t prove to be such a good model.

Personal note: Can we please stop with the references to Germany and Nazism? Those of us with a Jewish heritage find those references highly offensive. While I usually have a thick skin, that is one area where my skin is thin and tender.

I feel a cold breeze, did someone leave the door open again? : )

All kidding aside, thank you Ian for your prompt response to my inquiries and I look forward to meeting you as well.

I, too, am too busy for a detailed response, so I will get to that later.

Cheers!

Mark

Ian Wilson wrote:Mark:

Very quickly, one common misconception that many have about our organization is that it is BIG!

In fact, it’s really quite small in size with a compact membership and limited financial resources.

On the opposite end of the spectrum is the National Association of Music Merchants. My wife’s sister’s husband’s cousin’s husband (very close relationship) is the Executive Director. He is an employee of NAMM and is paid quite handsomely. Their annual conference makes ours look rather anemic (no offense to Dorothy or Crissy, but a budget that allows for entertainers such as Martina McBride and Keith Urban is clearly bigger than our budget). NAMM also has its own building and a rather large staff but their monthly income is more than our annual income.

Question: Would you be a fulltime Executive Director of our organization for less than $100,000? Neither would I. We simply do not have the budget for that kind of salary for an ED.

As I recall, Curt Sumner was a paid part-time employee of ACSM as the Executive Director. That didn’t prove to be such a good model.

Personal note: Can we please stop with the references to Germany and Nazism? Those of us with a Jewish heritage find those references highly offensive. While I usually have a thick skin, that is one area where my skin is thin and tender.

Hi Ian,

I thought CLSA had approximately two thousand members. That seems pretty big to me. Big enough to potentially generate considerable revenue anyway. What about the $10 million in revenue that I heard mention of? Is that true, and if so, how many years did it take to generate that much money?

What about the failure to list the Executive Director's annual compensation on the 2012 tax form that was posted? Was that already explained somewhere? If not, does that apparent omission suggest that perhaps there are others being compensated as well, but not being reported as such on the tax forms?

Thanks again for your input.

Sincerely,