California Surveyors Forums

I, as a PLS, plan to survey, monument & file a RS Map on my own property. Are there California Laws that prevent PLS to survey & file RS Map to my own property? Anyone?

Never heard of any.

as long as you do not show bias. But aren't you really surveying your neighbors property?

RAM wrote:as long as you do not show bias. But aren't you really surveying your neighbors property?

Well... establishment of property boundary lines always involve neighbors. I found neighbor's wall is encroached onto my land 1.7'. BTW, I purchased my property 1.5 year ago.

do not know of anything that will prevent you, but sounds like it might be best to hire an independent surveyor just so you do not have to defend your boundary solution if it is in your favor. Perception is important.

If you do a diligent survey of your own property there should not be any issues. If your neighbor has issues they can hire their own surveyor and the resulting surveys should be within tolerance of each other. I would discuss the issue with the neighbor and hopefully it works out calmly.

Is this not conflict of interest?

No conflict of interest, though there might be the perception of one by someone unfamiliar with the legal and ethical duty of licensees. An educational chat with the adjoiners might go a long way toward dissipating any suspicions.

I'm sure you're familiar with these, but you might dust them off and spend a little time reaquainting yourself with the chapters in “Clark on Surveying and Boundariesâ€￾, “Evidence and Proceduresâ€￾(Brown and Eldridge), and “Boundary Control and Legal Principlesâ€￾ (Brown) that discuss the legal role of the professional surveyor, the ethical implications involved in all boundary surveys, and the impartial role of the surveyor in matters of boundary location. There should be enough there to make you contemplate this matter very carefully. It’s not whether you think or even know you are competent and capable. When litigation hits, the details of the evidence and methodology that one would think is on trial will likely be lost beneath the ethical considerations and appearance of conflict the other party is certain to focus on. Lay persons, i.e. the jury, generally have no grasp of the concept that we are not advocates, and the last place they will be convinced of this is in a courtroom.

Knud Hermanson put on a great class on ethics that opened my eyes to this matter (Dennis Mouland covers it in his book too, includes a quote to make a point, “Any attorney who represents himself has a fool for a client.â€￾). After Knud’s class, I’d even think twice about doing surveys for relatives. Yes, some will think that’s taking it to the extreme, but a conservative approach may be the wise approach here.

Dave Ryan,
Arcata, Ca.

Wise words from Dave Ryan.

I think a lot depends on the circumstances. If I just wanted to build a fence, the line wasn't in dispute and the adjoiner understood my role, then I wouldn't go to the expense of hiring another surveyor. If the location of the line was in contention, then there'd be little point in surveying it myself, as the adjoiner would likely reject my location right from the get-go, and we'd need to get outside assistance anyway.

Another method I have seen is to have a colleague perform the survey (and file a record of survey) in exchange for surveying his or her property - at a later date if necessary.

Speaking from a very painful personal experience a few years ago, I would strongly encourage you to enlist the services of another land surveyor, preferrably one that you have never had any prior relationship with.

You have already described an existing conflict with the neighbor's wall and without knowing all the particulars, it's possible the encroachment may have resulted in unwritten rights benefiting said neighbor. Like what has been previosly mentioned, your neighbor is likely to dispute any of your findings that are in your favor.

Whether you surveying your property is a conflict of interest or not, many in the legal/law enforcement system view it as such.

Property disputes can be ugly enough without adding to the drama. Do yourself a favor and stay away from it.

Some questions and a few thoughts comes to mind...

Is a land surveyor surveying A) a property or B) property lines?

One can own property. Can anyone say that one owns property lines?

A land surveyor is almost always surveying for more than one property owner when conducting a boundary survey.

Take the land surveyor owning one of the properties out of the equation for a moment. Regardless of the manner in which all the property owners, sharing the lines, makes a living...would you consider each property owner as having an interest in the location of the common property lines? If so, and regardless of which property owner does it, if one of the owners decided where the line was, would you not consider that as a conflict of interest?

I would be willing to assist you as a professional courtesy.

Let me know if there's anything I can do to help.

This is exactly what a few of us did for an individual who needed to stay out of the actual survey. Find some surveyor friends, buy them some adult soda, and make a day of it.

Find some surveyor friends, buy them some adult soda, and make a day of it.

I'm not sure what problem that might solve. If the adjoiner doesn't trust his surveyor neighbor, why would he trust his neighbor's friends? And if it ever came to a lawsuit, I imagine the opposing attorney would have his own field day upon learning that the survey was done by friendly colleagues for the cost of a few beers.

Uh oh, Ric's getting philosohpical.

Ric7308 wrote: Is a land surveyor surveying A) a property or B) property lines?

The question may pertain to the surveyor doing topographic mapping of an interior portion of his property for a permit application. But more likely, it is about surveying the boundaries of the property owned by the surveyor.

Ric7308 wrote:One can own property. Can anyone say that one owns property lines?

Wow. Heavy, man. Maybe I should take a bong hit, and listen to some music from the days when I would have actually known where to find something to put in a bong... or where to find a bong for that matter.

"does anybody really know what time it is? does anybody really care?"

Oh! Flashback to the 80s! I'm back now. short trip.

Since property lines have no width and are merely the edge of a parcel, and hopefully coincident with the edge of an adjacent parcel, there is nothing to own when speaking of property lines. One owns up to the edge of the parcel. The location of the edge can be identified, but only because there is something which ends there. One can't own a property line because there is nothing tangible. You can't hold it, can't touch it, can't see it.

Some wise azz says "I can touch it!" as he puts his hand on the ground with his thumb on one parcel and his fingers on the adjoining one. But there's nothing there that is the line. It can't be seen unless marked. He touches two properties but can't touch the intangible line.

So no, nobody owns the line. Yet each landowner of a parcel that abuts the line has an interest in its location - the location of the edge of his parcel.

Ric7308 wrote:A land surveyor is almost always surveying for more than one property owner when conducting a boundary survey.

Yes, but almost always is paid by only one of the property owners. does that create a conflict of interest? Will the surveyor always favor the paying landowner when gathering and interpreting the boundary evidence?

Ih he would do it when surveying the boundaries of his own parcel, it's not much of a leap to attribute the logic to the surveyor when considering the paying client vs the non-paying adjoiner.

Ric7308 wrote:Take the land surveyor owning one of the properties out of the equation for a moment.

Oh good. That'll make it easier.

Ric7308 wrote: Regardless of the manner in which all the property owners, sharing the lines, makes a living...would you consider each property owner as having an interest in the location of the common property lines?

It depends. If one of the landowners is an engineer, he probably has no interest at all in the location of his boundaries. He just wants to know where the deed lines are.

Virtually everyone else, yeah, they have an interest in the boundary locations.

Ric7308 wrote: If so, and regardless of which property owner does it, if one of the owners decided where the line was, would you not consider that as a conflict of interest?

It depends upon how he does it, and wheter he is "deciding where it is" or if he is finding it where it already exists.

The engineer, having no interest where the boundary is, will unilaterally decide where the deed lines are because he's smarter than all of his neighbors, certainly smarter than any surveyor a neighbor might hire, and besides, he had a survey class in his freshman year back in 199[something] and knows all he needs to know to run levaels around the lot and stake the deed lines.

Anyone else lacking in the high formal training of the engineer, and otherwise having no training or experience surveying, will, assuming they are an honest type of person, try to find the stakes or pins left by a surveyor, accept an old fence line, ask a neighbor if they know, or just go with what their real estate agent told them.

But if they used some reasonable and honest method to try to find it, that is attempted to locate it in good faith, then that defeats the inherent conflict. If they used a method that actually led them to the true boundary, then they done good.

Whether a landowner is a surveyor or not (I just brought him back into the equation, but I'm about to simplify it, so it's OK), there is an inherent potential for a conflict of interest, and there may be a perception of possible impropriety by the untrusting neighbor of Board Enforcement Analyst.

Likewise, there is a similar inherent conflict of interest anytime the surveyor is paid only by one of the several landowners with interests in the locations of boundaries the surveyor is tasked with locating. And in the mind of the very paranoid, there is still the perception that the surveyor will favor the paying client.

But if the surveyor is an honest one and conducts the survey as he would any other, there is no conflict. There may be nothing he can do about the perceptions of others though.

All that being said, I would have no qualms about surveying the boundaries of my own parcel. If I encountered no conflicts with the descriptions or occupation of adjoining parcels, no problem. If I did encounter such conflicts, I would hire another surveyor to also perform the survey and file the map.

Because of the possible perceptions of neighboring landowners, make sure that your records, including research and the documentation of your own work are very complete and very clear. You may have to make those records available for review should any questions come up.

Wise words from Dave Ryan.

Wise words from Ryan Versteeg, as well!

Evan,

I appreciate the fact that you can write an 11 minute song saying essentially the same thing that can be written in a 3 minute song.

Ric

It's like The Doors 7 minute version of "Light My Fire" versus the 3 minute single version without the instrumental section.

In songs, the long version always wins, IMO. ;)

But it is a song like that I will always turn off.

By the way, what’s a bong?

RasterMaster wrote: By the way, what’s a bong?

Suuuuuure you don't know what that is. Suuuuure.

Ric7308 wrote:Evan,

I appreciate the fact that you can write an 11 minute song saying essentially the same thing that can be written in a 3 minute song.

Ric

Yep, but the 11 minute song I might have the verse that hits the right note where the 3 minute song cut it out to get play time on the top 40 fluff.

Boundary or Boundaries.

Not boundary line or property line. There is no such thing as a property line. That is a figment of a delusional engineer's imagination.

Look in Blacks, C.J.S. Or the case law: boundaries or boundary dispute is what you will find, never property line.

Let's use the actual authorities, folks, not the surveying texts which are not authorities.