California Surveyors Forums

If any of us in the land surveying profession think our profession isn't in danger of becoming obsolete, consider this post from another surveyor's forum.

Conversion of the Digital Parcel GIS Map to Survey Grade Accuracy:

My Ph.D. research at the University of Florida since 2003 shows that today almost all counties (parishes) in the United States and in many other countries now own and maintain public Digital Parcel GIS Maps (“Parcel GIS Mapâ€￾) which were usually created from the hand-drawn tax maps and other recorded information. Additionally, most jurisdictions also have a relatively current, high accuracy, digital, aerial orthophoto mosaic which can be viewed on the internet as an overlay on its Parcel GIS Map.

Many of these Parcel GIS Maps are now in the process of being rectified by ground data such that the corners and lines more closely agree with the aerial orthophoto mosaics and “ground truth.â€￾ Once rectified, these Parcel GIS Maps can produce state plane coordinates (and/or latitudes and longitudes) sufficient to produce boundary maps for most, if not all, boundary requirements.

Survey grade GPS allows for the use of this coordinate information to locate corners and lines on the ground. As this high grade GPS becomes more available to the public it is inevitable that within a short period of time this new technology will cause the traditional boundary surveys by licensed (registered) land surveyors to be unnecessary. Given these indisputable facts my questions are these:
1. Will land surveyors accept, understand and use this new technology?
2. How can land surveyors use this new technology to avoid becoming obsolete?
3. Is it too late for land surveyors to participate in these conversions?
4. Will the interrelated web of all of the parcels in these Parcel GIS Maps act to reduce litigation over disputed boundaries?

Ted Madson
April 19, 2012


Mr. Madson's response to questions;

Thanks for your good faith question. My comments have been designed to inform our profession that the winds of change are upon us as regards the location of boundaries between landowners. As you point out, the confusion caused by different surveyors using the same information to set different corner monuments is the tip of the iceberg.

Thinking out of the box, consider the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo, the peace treaty largely dictated by the United States to the interim government of a militarily occupied Mexico City, that ended the Mexican-American War (1846 – 48) on February 2, 1848. That Treaty provided that all lands claimed by Mexican Nationals would be honored up to a certain date (the "drop dead" date), after which the United States took over those lands and wrote the descriptions as desired without regard to previous claims.

If this same strategy were to be used with a survey grade GIS a law could be passed that would establish the lines and corners as shown on the GIS to be authoritative as regards boundaries for ownership of lands. This would obviously stop any claims after the drop dead date of that law. This solution is being seriously discusses at this time.

I've resoponded to some of these drivel wads dropped in other boards.

Essentially, if Mr. Madsen actually believes what he's posted, he really needs to review history, laws in EACH of the 50 states regarding land ownership statutes, federal-based land ownership statutes and, not least, the US Constitution and the Bill of Rights.

The "evidence" he tosses about in support of this swill is ludicrous, as well.

This is nothing more than "Sophmore Syndrome" ramblings of the irrelevant. (Sophmore Syndrome is a condition inflicting those who have taken an overview course and now consir themselves to be well veered with the nuances of th subject. Unfortunately, they have yet to learn enough ton understand how little they have learned and how poorly they understand the subject.

Too many people, some of them even licensed as land surveyors, operate under the misunderstanding that boundary surveying is a mathematical exercise. It is not. Boundary surveying is a LEGAL function. When it comes to boundary, the land surveyor is to the attorney as the engineer is to the physicist (think about it).

GIS is not now or in the future likely to be the CAUSE of boundary determination. It WILL and DOES assist LICENSED PROFESSIONALS in understanding the history, spatial relationships and other details.

GIS is a tool; Boundary surveying is a process.

We are not, now, or ever, in danger of becoming extinct as a profession. We will change, radiaclly in some cases. We will be required to be educated as geodosists and quasi-attorneys. We will no longer deal with many of the technical aspects of the profession, such as construction staking, etc. We may even shrink in number to a level befitting the resultant Functions.

Ian,

Consider that as a group GIS professionals far out number PLS’s in all the states. Take one example. On the LINKEDIN forums for GIS Professionals and Professional Land Surveyors the GISP members following those discussions outnumber PLS discussions almost 8:1. There is over 21,000 members in the GISP forum and less than 3,400 PLS forum. I think the point Mr. Madson is making is that we in the land surveying community need to be concerned. I would also offer that as a group the GISPs are far better organized than we PLSs.

Maybe Mr. Madson’s observations and assertions aren’t so far out there as we in the land surveying community would like to think. I recently completed a survey of a street right of way in a small town in the north San Francisco Bay area. The town's planning and engineering department was denying a building permit on the strength of right of way location shown on the town's GIS. During the back and forth discussions about the true location of the right of way the assistant city engineer of the town informed me that the location of the right of way shown on their GIS layer overlaid on the aerial photography superseded my “opinion” of the location.

I would be interested in who is having these discussions Mr. Madson mentions. Based on my interactions with the assistant city engineer, someone is dispensing misinformation at some level of government that leads, otherwise educated bureaucrats, to believe this GIS nonsense regarding boundary locations.

To say emphatically that land surveyors are not now or ever in danger of becoming extinct may be wishful thinking. Mr. Madson’s reference to the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo is thought provoking.

Ian- you and I know that, but do the politicians that make the laws? The clerks in the recorders offices, etc.

A friend of a friend went to a local city to research her property to be. The City employee in the engineering dept gave her a assessors map and told her there would be a IP at the corners, all she had to was dig it up she didn't need a surveyor. This was in a notoriously bad hilly beach city in regards to boundaries and occupation.

I read a few years ago where a county recorder in the SE part of the US refused a surveyors map because it did not match her GIS.

Mford:

Numbers mean nothing! Please! Review your land ownership law from Runnymeade to modern times. What is being proposed is a complete overturn of more than a thousand years of land ownership laws, customs and values. IT CANNOT HAPPEN!

Private ownership of land is regulated by each of the fifty States. The right of each of the States to do so is guaranteed by the Constitution and Bill of Rights. The very basis of our economy is built on land ownership.

The Rules of Evidence would have to be completely overturned in order to even allow for a Court to uphold any GIS-based determination of private boundaries. The Court system will simply to allow that. The divergence from current law and
Precepts is just too great!

The fact that there are even those in the GIS field who are THINKING about such a system points to e basic lack of understanding of the concept. GIS is a tool, a VERY powerful tool. But, just as a battle axe is a powerful tool, it is not likely to be used to turn the screws on my pocket watch.

The fact that there are people with licenses to survey land who are also considering this terrifies me!

Tom:

Your examples are of aberrations that were quickly taken care of BECAUSE current land ownership statutes still prevail.

I had a Parcel Map that was being refused because the GIS department pointed out that my map didn't match their database. That was quickly nipped I the bud and used as a learning tool. To my knowledge, that has to happened again in that county.

Fortunately, our system nits country is based on no less than three distinct and separate parts of government: the executive, the legislative and the judicial. Any one of them can override the other two, particularly when it comes to the law.

No Court would stand for the legislators making such broad attacks on land ownership. No Legislature would be fool enough to even attempt to make those statutory changes in the first place. The entirety of the foundation of our laws would have to be overturned. It just won't happen!

To be sure, those of us who understand the concept of land ownership and the legal aspects of determination of boundaries must be vigilant so that those ridiculous actions by the unlearned illiterate do not go further than great story over beers.

For a system that somewhat approximates the contemplated GIS-controlled land net, look to the Torrens Registry in place in South Australia. It is probably one of the finest examples of a real land net database in existence. One of the reasons for this is that is was establish at nearly the beginning of land tenure in Sou Oz. It STILL doesn't preclude disputes over boundaries. The Courts are STILL the arbitrators of such cases!

For an example of what a similar system does when it is NOT established from the onset, look to the Torrens-based Land Registry in Los Angeles! Yes! Los Angeles!

GIS data bases are wonderful things! They are NOT the tool to RESOLVE boundary disputes.

G get
I it
S surveyed

I have yet to meet the person(s) who can determine on the ground where boundary lines are without leaving his/her's computer.

Well, money makes the rules.

Look at Lightsquared and my fantastic Motorla P50's that the govt just made obsolete.

Sure they are 20 years old, but why should I have to throw them away if they still work. Fkg Govt.