California Surveyors Forums

I had the opportunity to strike a blow for the profession by filing a complaint with the Board about an out of state CA LS for not filing a ROS of ALTA surveys. This person lives in Florida and signs ALTA surveys for the International Land Services Company out of Norman, OK. I was surprised and disappointed in our governing body’s lack of enforcement of the PLS Act.

My complaint was based on a 2004 ALTA survey of a property that I was retained to also provide an ALTA survey for in 2009 for the new owner. The property is described by meets and bounds and there wasn’t a map of record on file of the parcel as of 2009. I contacted the 2004 surveyor inquiring about the ROS required under section 8762 of the PLS Act. His rather curt response was the he didn’t file the ROS because he didn’t set any monuments. I politely suggested he review the Act and reconsider his decision. I subsequently completed my ALTA survey filed the requisite ROS in early 2010. As of August of 2010 Florida surveyor hadn’t filed the ROS (no surprise). Therefore I filed a complaint with BPELS-G forwarding them all the relevant material, including a copy of my ROS, and a narrative of my conversation with Florida surveyor and his contact information.

Last week I received a response from BPELS-G stating the results of their investigation and their decision regarding my complaint. Although they agreed that Florida surveyor should have filed a ROS in 2004, they decided that since his ALTA didn’t discover any material discrepancies from the legal description, and my ROS was basically the same as his ALTA map, with some differences, they were dismissing the complaint and closing the case with no punitive actions against Florida surveyor. No harm no foul. Oh, he also agreed to file maps in the future.

With the BPELS-G we have is it any wonder the surveying profession in CA is in the state it’s in these days? Why bother with the additional expense and trouble of filing a ROS when our governing board doesn’t seem to give a damn if you don’t? BPELS-G seems to think filing maps isn’t a requirement it’s an option. It’s back to the future when we kept our surveys to ourselves. After all what’s the consequence for not filing?

How would the Board discipline a surveyor in Florida or Oklahoma (assuming they do not have a California PLS)?

I guess they can go after him/her for Practicing Surveying without a License.

First sentence says, "...an out of state CA LS..."

Plus if someone who is licensed in another state and not CA who gets hit for practicing without a license, the state boards for which they are licensed will eventually find out about the discipline in CA and they will be disciplined by their own board, at least you would hope they will be.

I would like to apologize to BPLES-G for my initial post on the Florida surveyor matter. I was unaware there had been previous actions taken by the Board concerning his practice in CA. Both D Wooly and E Page pointed me to a location that had information about the disciplinary action recently taken against this surveyor. In my defense the letter I received from the Board made no mention of past or pending investigations other than my own. It only stated the case was closed and there would be no further action taken in regard to my complaint.

I will take D Wooly’s suggestion and stay on the horse and with the group (not that I ever really seriously considered jumping off the horse). It would be nice though if the Board would have more of an explanation in cases like this so those of us who aren’t as familiar with their procedures don’t go off half cocked.

Thanks again Dave and Evan

How does someone in FL comply with item 6 Complete CA laws and rules exam?

And I agree that when someone files a complaint against surveyor A, they should be informed of other pending disciplinary actions against surveyor A.

"The lowliest of the low"? That's a bit of hyperbole, don't you think, Dave?

I've seen far worse transgressions than failing to file a RS because of a lack of setting new monuments. Sometimes not filing a RS because one did not set monuments is actually due to ignorance and not due to a survey scoundrel trying to hide the fact that he was there or to hide one's findings.

Some state's requirements are (or were) that a map only need be filed if new monuments are set.

Ignorance is not a valid excuse for not filing, but I believe it is far more common, not to mention less nefarious than the motives you infer. Way far from the lowliest of the low.

I am lucky in that in the approx. 3 years I practiced in CA, Both southern and around the Bay area, I didn't do a single survey that I can remember which required a ROS and of which I was the responsible surveyor. Tract maps and Parcel maps and corner records, I did more than one, though only one parcel map was recorded with my signature. I am glad I left nothing "Hanging" out there.

Dave,

You said: "Evan, how about we strike an agreement, I report the results of these scofflaws and you provide their excuses."


From that, would it be safe for me to infer that you read neither my full post, which ended with: "Ignorance is not a valid excuse for not filing,...",

which I also echoed in our email exchange yesterday? Or are you simply trying to bait me?


I haven't yet read your full post from this morning, but scanned it and understand the gist of it to be that a professional has the responsibility to know the laws of the state he is practicing in, regardless of whether it is one's home state or not, or whether one recently moved there or practiced there for their entire career.


Please re-read my post and my email. I completely agree on that point. Ignorance is not a valid excuse. But neither is ignorance an act of malice.

Not filing for whatever reason is punishable, but in many cases it is also correctable given a little education to the remiss surveyor. In those cases, it is not the high crime you characterize it to be.

In other cases, and it is more prevalent in the outfits, out of state or in-state, that crank out cheap ALTAs as if off an assembly line using cheap parts, there are undoubtedly more of the shadowy, unethical and amoral characters that you presume all who fail to file are.



BTW - Don't patronize me with that crap about providing excuses for the violators. You know damn well that's not true.

Regarding:

There is no federal law governing private property rights. None.

Amendment 5 to the U.S. Constitution says a thing or two about them.

If we are discussing merely civil infractions, then where do the "lowest of the low" come into the picture?

The "lowest of the low" are commiting not just civil infractions, but actual crimes of fraud with intent for unjust gain. Malice is a necessary ingredient in that intent.