California Surveyors Forums

Retraced a monument that was first shown on a 1958 ROS describe as “FOUND ¾â€￾ IRON PIPE MARKED LS XXXX, APPARENTLY REPLACES IRON PIN MARKED LS XXXX PER (1951) MAP NO. XXXXâ€￾. I assume that the surveyor who gave record birth to this monument did not find its original birth certificate and held its position as a lot corner.
Subsequent surveys either show dimensions to this corner or memorializes this monument as follows:

R1) 1968 Map- not shown;
R2)1969 PM- not shown;
R3)1979 PM- shown found but offset 0.11’ from corner
R4)1990 ROS- not shown
R5)1993 PM- found and held
R6)2003 PM- found and held
R7)2004 ROS- found and held

R6 and R7 indicates held per R1, R3, and R5 even though the maps do not agree on the corners position in relationship to the monument.

My survey results agree with R3. How much credibility, if any, would you give to this monument since it was born without a certificate of birth.

Thanks for your input.

Since it is not the original called for, and prior surveyors have disputed its truthfulness, you are free to do what you want with it.

"Kenyan" monuments. You crack me up!

You could dispute it, but what basis do you have to disagree withit for only 0.11'? In all but a very few locations and under all but the most exacting tolerances for boundary locations, a surveyor's monument existing only 0.11' from the calculated corner and in existence since 1958 would be as good as gold.

Do you have other better evidence which fixes the location 0.11' from the IP?

Review Code of Civil Procedure §2077 and consider how and whether that IP has been recognized by the affected landowners before making that decision.

OK. I'll bite. Why "Kenyan"?

I agree with Evan here. Are you surveying in flat or hilly lands? Are there occupation considerations, fences, walls, buildings close to PL, other items that show the acts of the owners?

Not sure about the "Kenyan" reference...(swoosh...the sound of that joke passing over my head).

LOL...........

Joke explained:

The Donald has stated that he believes Obama wasn't born in the US, but in Kenya. He kinda had it thrown in his face at the last press corps dinner, on the day Obama produced his "long form" birth certificate.

So...
A non-record monument -> no birth certificate -> a Kenyan monument.

Dunce cap being firmly applied to my head...

I'm not taking the dunce cap.

Having been brought up in Kenya and knowing what a Kenyan birth certificate looks like (my brother was born there the same year Obama was born - here), the fakes I've seen weren't even on the correct format paper.

I never equated such "foolery" with something serious.

Now I know...


.

"I never equated such "foolery" with something serious."

Calm down, Ian. I don't think it was meant to be serious, nor a slam on Kenya. I read it only as a humorous reference to the dificulty in determining the true origin of the monument tied to a recent event most are aware of.

I agree with Evan.

Monuments over math.

There has never been a perfect survey yet.

1958 was 43 years ago for Heaven's sakes! Repose, establishment, etc.

I think a Survey which shows a monument "off" but doesn't set a new one so the property owner can use the correct location of the corner is really saying "just use the monument which is there!"

How to Survey:
Park the truck and find the corner monuments. Once they are found then get out the fancy high tech measuring equipment and measure what the true dimensions of the parcel are which almost certainly will not match what is in the record.

Outstanding, Dave!

I was born in 1958. Here was I thinking I was about to hit 53 next week. Now, I find that I'm only going to be 43!

What a way to start the weekend!

Ian,

I saw some guys at a local mall carrying signs proclaiming that the world ends tomorrow. If they're right, you don't get to be 43 (again), you'll have to be satisfied with having been there only once.



Dave,

A local old timer (maybe I should refer to him as highly experienced rather than old as he is still practicing and pretty spry for a septugenarian - and besides, his son visits here and may tell on me) once put it very similarly to me: You need to go out and find the boundaries before you ever start measuring anything.

I wonder how many understand that advice.

Ian,
Let's see 11 minus 8 is 3 oops forgot something there ;-)
-Dave

Evan,
I heard it from a local surveyor who taught boundary but I think he was paraphrasing Mulford or maybe Clark, I can't remember.

It is somewhat of an oversimplification but the point is the thought process. Sometimes I can follow the line through the woods and there it is, a real knee-cap breaker of a concrete monument sticking up 2'. Other times the thing is buried or otherwise hard to find so we use measurements to find the monuments.

Where did we go wrong getting too cheap to use those concrete monuments? They show up as early as the 1930s and disappear by the 1960s. Granted I don't have a crew of people to carry that thing (4' long by 4" square, 67lb monument) to the corner and I have found them in some pretty remote and rough places. We are setting 2" aluminum BLM-style monuments which are pretty good and I can make them stick up with a rock mound in most cases.

I think a lot of perception of the public problems surveyors have could be solved simply by setting substantial monuments instead of the typical puny rebar. I admit I have set plenty of plastic caps but they just don't look like much against a 3-1/4" cap sticking up 6 or 7 tenths although you can't always leave them up like that. Even if they are flush with a concrete collar that is way better than something buried that no one knows is there not to mention it getting torn up by the landscapers or re-paving crews. The City would never pave over their water valve but for some reason there is a perception that survey control just isn't that important.
-Dave

The worst, but very durable, monuments I ever had to look for was in south Corona on a dirt hard pack road.
18" square concrete blocks with copper nail (about the size of a 1" finishing nail). All were down 1.5-2.5 feet.

definitely built up my arms and pecs on that one. Wore out a new digging bar too.