California Surveyors Forums

Old L.S. Act Section 8761 (c):
All final maps, plats, reports, descriptions, or other documents issued by a licensed land surveyor or civil engineer authorized to practice land surveying shall bear the signature and seal or stamp of the licensee, the date of signing and sealing or stamping, and the EXPIRATION date of the license.

Amended this year by AB 645 to:
(d) All final maps, plats, reports, descriptions, or other land
surveying documents issued by a licensed land surveyor or civil
engineer authorized to practice land surveying shall bear the
signature and seal or stamp of the licensee and the date of signing
and sealing or stamping. If the land surveying document has multiple
pages or sheets, the signature, seal or stamp, and date of signing
and sealing or stamping shall appear, at a minimum, on the title
sheet, cover sheet or page, or signature sheet, unless otherwise
required by law.
(e) It is unlawful for any person to sign, stamp, seal, or approve
any map, plat, report, description, or other land surveying document
unless the person is authorized to practice land surveying.
(f) It is unlawful for any person to stamp or seal any map, plat,
report, description, or other land surveying document with the seal
or stamp after the certificate of the licensee that is named on the
seal or stamp has expired or has been suspended or revoked, unless
the certificate has been renewed or reissued.

I suppose this takes effect on the first of January, it was signed by the governator and chaptered on October 11 this year.
No longer need to state the expiration date, but must note the date of signing.

Here is a link to the history and text of the changes:
http://www.aroundthecapitol.com/Bills/AB_645/

There was a previous thread on this bill passing, but I cant find it using the search function here. Did we loose that with the site update?

Happy Thanksgiving to All!!!
Tom Propst

What about these certificates from the PLS Act. Someone must have overlooked this if the intent was to remove the requirement for indicating the expiration date on "any" document or map signed by the licensee. The SMA certificates don't have a line specifying an expiration date, although many local agencies probably have standard certificates that call for it and "enhance" the minimum requirement of the SMA. My agency does ask for it on tract and parcel maps, but are phasing out of the practice given the intent of AB 645 and the fact that the SMA does not require it.

8764.5. Statements shall appear on the map as follows:
SURVEYOR'S STATEMENT

This map correctly represents a survey made by me or under my
direction in conformance with the requirements of the Professional
Land Surveyors' Act at the request of _____

Name of Person Authorizing Survey

in ____, 20__.
(Signed and sealed) _____
L.S. (or R.C.E.) No. _____
License expiration date _____

COUNTY SURVEYOR'S STATEMENT

This map has been examined in accordance with Section 8766 of
the Professional Land Surveyors' Act this ____ day of ____, 20__.

(Signed and sealed) __________

County Surveyor

L.S. (or R.C.E.) No. __________
License expiration date __________

Those certificates were fixed (i.e. they removed the requirement for the expiration date) in the same bill, see the link above for the full text.

Thanks for the info. Leginfo probably won't be updated till the law takes effect

http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/displ ... 760-8774.5

I think that expiration is the correct verbage, not renewal. It is a simple term of what each word means. Expiration is the ending of a fixed period for which a contract is valid. Basically your license is a contract with the state saying that you will be practicing land surveying for a period of time. Renewal is the action of extending the period of validity of license. So this is what you are doing as a surveyor to continue your contract with the state. It is your decision to renew.

If you decide not to renew, your license expires. So by putting a "renewal date" on your plans, you are basically telling someone that you plan on continuing to practice land surveying by extending the expiration date of your stamp.

Also, I know in some instances, the renewal date on some state licenses is not the expiration date. For example, my wife has a license for her dental profession. This year her license expired in September but the decision to renew had an ending date of October 31, 2009.

Until Jan 1, 2010, continue to use expiration date. For a PLS, if you do not renew by your expiration date, you are NOT to practice Land Surveying, despite the 30 day "grace period" which applies to no late fees to renew.

Use the statutory language. The vast majority of your clients pay no attention to such details in the notes and certifications. Of those that do pay attention, most won't care whether it says "expiration" or "renewal".

I've had this talk with many over the past few years.

In my mind, "Expiration" is the wrong word. Prior to AB645, which I still disagree with, "Renewal" made more sense, since that is when the state required renewal fees for your license. With an expiration date on a filed map, did you get a new license after that date? Could a potential client (adjoiner to a filed map) see your "Expiration Date" and wonder if your still practicing? Maybe they won't even call you for the portential job, cause they read it different from what it truly means?

It is a word game which is the cause for AB645. If it said "Renewal Date" I think AB645 would never have shown up. Even with AB645 going into effect, I will still be writing in my Exp. Date, as I am not going to purchase a new seal.

Take a look at your Driver's License. Right above the picture it says "Expires mm-dd-yy". It says nothing of renewal. Yet we renew the same license every few years.

We get a new card which represents that license, but we do not get a new license. My DL # has remained the same since I got it and therefore is the same license. If we do not renew it, it expires.

I may renew my licence (Driver's or PLS) before, on, or after my expiration date. If after, the renewal is delinquent and the license becomes expired. If I then renew within whatever grace period there may be, my license then becomes renewed on that date.

So, the Expiration Date tells us the deadline of when we are to renew, not necessarily the specific date upon which we must renew. It is the specific date however on which the license will expire if we do not renew.

The reason the date requirement was added is unfortunately very simple and does not reflect favorably on our profession. I remember when the law was adopted as it has not always been that way.

Regrettably, many surveyors either forgot or neglected to pay their license fees every few years. Consequently, and purely for budgetary purposes, the legislature required the inclusion of the date to assure that everyone paid their renewal fees on time. If they did not, the surveyor did not have a right to practice. The SOLE purpose was to make sure the state got its money - that is it - pure and simple.

Remember when they license lasted for a longer period? Purely budgetary.

AB 645 (Niello)
Professional engineers and land surveyors: licensing.LEGISLATIVE COUNSEL'S DIGEST


AB 645, as amended, Niello. Professional engineers and land
surveyors: licensing.
Existing law, the Professional Engineers Act, provides for the
licensing and regulation of the practice of civil engineering,
electrical engineering, mechanical engineering, and the Professional
Land Surveyors Act provides for licensing and regulation of land
surveying by the Board of Professional Engineers and Land Surveyors.
A violation of these acts is a crime.
Existing law requires that any civil engineering, mechanical
engineering, or electrical engineering plans and other specified
documents, prepared by a registered engineer, that are permitted or
that are to be released for construction shall bear the signature and
seal or stamp of the registrant, the date of signing and sealing or
stamping, and the expiration date of the certificate, authority, or
registration.
This bill would instead require that these documents bear the
signature and seal of the licensee and the date of signing and
sealing or stamping.
Existing law permits a licensed land surveyor to obtain a stamp or
seal with the designation "Licensed Land Surveyor" containing the
expiration date of the license. Existing law requires that specified
multiple page land surveying documents contain the signature, seal or
stamp, date of signing and sealing or stamping, and expiration date
of the license on specified pages.
This bill would create a state-mandated local program by requiring
licensed land surveyors to obtain the stamp or seal and would
eliminate the requirement that the license expiration date appear on
the stamp or seal and the multiple page land surveying documents.
This bill would also make nonsubstantive, technical, and conforming
changes.
The California Constitution requires the state to reimburse local
agencies and school districts for certain costs mandated by the
state. Statutory provisions establish procedures for making that
reimbursement.
This bill would provide that no reimbursement is required by this
act for a specified reason.
NOTE THE FOLLOWING IS SHOWN AS A STRIKEOUT AND THIS FORUM DOES NOT PERMIT INCLUSION OF UNDERLINE/STRIKEOUT.


Existing law provides for the licensure and regulation of
professional engineers and land surveyors by the Board of
Professional Engineers and Land Surveyors in the Department of
Consumer Affairs, and requires licenses issued by the board to be
renewed every 2 years. Existing law authorizes the board to fix
license application fees, up to specified maximum amounts, and
provides for other fees, the amounts of which are based on the amount
of the application fees. Those fees are deposited into the
Professional Engineers and Land Surveyors Fund, a continuously
appropriated fund.
This bill would instead require licenses issued by the board to be
renewed every 4 years and would double the maximum amounts of the
license application fees. By increasing the amount of funds deposited
into a continuously appropriated fund, the bill would make an
appropriation.

There were several factors that went into the change from 4 years to 2 years (SB136 2002 I think). Not entirely budget increasing, but also revenue balancing from year to year. Anyone who would like to discuss the issue further is welcome to meet me in Reno at the CLSA Conference...

A surveyor once submitted a map (or maybe it was a legal description) for checking with renewal date on it instead of expiration date. I liked his logic.

I wish that tub of salsa I bought 2 or 3 weeks ago had a renewal date. I didn't get to finish it in time...