California Surveyors Forums

http://www.mmsurveyors.com/index.cfm

I thought these guys might look a little fishy. Check out their "PALS" report. Seems like they might be getting themselves into a lot of trouble by doing something like that.

OH NO! Somebody is bringing Mortgage Inspection Reports to CA.

These things are a pox on the profession and to the public. Most people, regardless of the title of the document, and regardless of any disclaimer note that "This survey is not a survey" think that they are getting a real survey for their $395.

Potential clients will be ticked when they come to you for a real survey and you tell them $2500. "Why you crook! My neighbor got a survey for $395! My realtor said that if it costs more than $500, I'm being ripped off! I'm calling M&M!"

I recently found out that my dad, with regard to his home back east, had been under the belief that he had had a survey of his lot done for $150 when he bought the house in 1991. He was rather shocked when I explained what he actually had, and that it was worthless for purposes of delineating his property.

MRs are a scourge and, I hope, not legal in CA. I'll be reviewing the PLSA very carefully this weekend.

Ric, I know you're out there. Has BPELS confronted this in the past?

Not to mention Greg, with the technology now, you can use Google Earth to get your pictures of the property from the street. I too have done the paper boundary just showing the easements on the property for a few clients who were looking to see if a project was suitable for their development. It just seemed like M&M was offering a little more than that in their packages.

Under the heading "What does a PALS report include?" they say:

"A PALS Report includes a site inspection and report by a surveyor. In the report you will find copies of all relevant documents such as the property deed, Assessor's map, Tract map, Parcel map, and Zimas map. It will also include photographs and written observations of features along the property lines such as walls, fences and buildings. Any restrictions to the property, such as easements, will be documented and shown on accompanying photographs or sketches. Any other items of interest will be noted by the surveyor and included in the report. A recommendation for the type of survey or other services needed for your property will also be included. A PALS Report can usually be completed in two working days."

Talk about clever marketing! Sounds like the initial research any of us would do before preparing a proposal for a new client. Except this company charges up front for it.

I like the "written observations of features along the property lines..." comment. I'm sure they would get something like: "there appears to be a hedge running nearby the east P/L. Oh, and here's a copy of your Assessor's Map, to go along with my written observation."

The entire page describing the PALS "Report" is very carefully written...designed to lure someone into a watered down version of pretend survey. I think most of it would pass the scrutiny of The Board. But this claim may not:

"This report will provide you with a professional analysis of your property and answer your questions regarding the boundary and other related issues."

To me, that's crossing the line. "Professional analysis" coupled with "answer your questions regarding the boundary" is treading in dangerous territory. In reality, what they are offering is basically the same thing that a real estate agent could offer. Drive by the lot, take some photos, give them a copy of the Assessor's Map with a "sketch" indicating that there's a 10' PUE along the street frontage.

To puff that up into a "professional analysis" is at least hyperbole, if not outright distortion.

In the CFEDS world, its called a BAC (boundary assurance certificate). The BAC allows the decisionmaker to make decisions based upon what is compiled in the BAC. Part of what makes up the BAC is a COS(chain of surveys) and there is a portion that reviews all the title documents and there may or may not be a survey on the ground , it all just depends.

The service seems like it could be useful and not the least bit fishy(although I just glanced at the site). This type of service is not really a mortgage survey at all.

It seems like clever marketing.

Dane...

You talk about reviewing "all the title documents" but this firm's website doesn't say anything at all about getting, much less reviewing, a title report. You compare this BAC, mentioning a "chain of surveys" but once again this firm doesn't include any surveys in their PALS Report. You are giving them way too much credit. Have you read the page describing their reports?

Another issue I have with them regards the way they talk about boundary fences and walls. Under the paragraph entitled, "Who owns that wall? Can I expand the house? Can I remove those trees?" they give the following answer:

"Simple questions? Yes. Simple answers? No. Walls or fences are rarely built on property lines, and sometimes don't follow the lines at all....You may own more or less than what you see within your fences. These are just some of the important issues a PALS Report will address."

So Dane, how can anyone, especially a licensed surveyor, address the question of "who owns that wall?" without doing a full survey?

Don't you think this goes beyond "clever marketing"?

Lee:

That is what I gathered too. I think these guys are in a word "establishing" property lines and are trying to get away without filing an ROS by saying that they never broke out the legs.

I think this is someone who is taking advantage of property owners by giving them the assurance that they own up to a point when that may not be the case. They basically give them this packet of papers which are essentially useless in court when it comes to lines of ownership/occupation.

I thought for sure Dave would have something to say about this. Where is that guy?

If they are just trying to shortcut the rules, then I agree with you Lee. I was just pointing to a simliar process, that is a valuable process that imparts valuable information to the client. However, if it is just a scam as several have pointed out in this thread, that you be too bad. I was just rying to find a silver lining......

Dave is in the space ship command center working on vectors and the time consortium regarding space boundaries all the while trying to get back on course for Earth. All of a sudden the computer states in a very pleasant womans voice "Hello Dave. Where are you Dave? Have you read the PALS report yet, Dave?"

Clever marketing? It sounds like a service some of you do for certain clients?

I see some big differences. The clients that have been mentioned here are developers and government agencies, both of which are aware of potential issues that could come up in projects dealing with land. That is a much more sophisticated client than your average homeowner or similar client that does not deal extensively with land transactions.

The first paragraph makes it very clear that the target clientele is those buying a home. A significant number, probably a majority of these clients, this service for them will be a "survey", just not an expensive one like the rest of us "crooks" would try to squeeze out of them.

Lee's analysis was best. If the focus of this service was to recommend the most appropriate type(s) of surveys needed, and manage to get paid for it, then it is indeed great marketing. Wouldn't it be great to get paid directly for the effort we put in to prepare a responsible estimate?

If the result of this was to lead to a proper survey in every case where one would be required, then it would be fine.

The website raises some typical questions and then makes the statement "The only way to answer these questions is to get a land survey." OK, that sounds good, like the recommendation any of us might make. But they immediately follow that up with "But a property survey might be too expensive..."

So it seems that they are not only using this service as a potential lead in to more extensive work, but also as an appropriate alternative.

That is exactly how MRs are seen in most places they are offered. Most people who get them generally have the understanding (albeit perhaps a mistaken one) that what they are getting is not a "full blown" (i.e. expensive) survey, but still a survey nonetheless, having little or no idea what a "full blown" survey includes that the cheap one doesn't.

And where do these clients generally come from? They come through real estate agents. We already commonly hear that RE agents tell clients that a survey should cost about $300. The RE agent's incentive is to limit all costs that do not result in $ going to their fee, in order to make the sale less expensive and therefore more attractive for their client. If they see some potential issues, and can lead their client to believe that they are watching out for the client's interest by recommending a "survey", which do you think thy will recommend, the "full blown" survey that costs $2000 to $5000, or will they recommend the $400 alternative?

What about lenders and title insurers? At present we see lenders ask for a survey primarily only on commercial projects. Lenders want to make loans while protecting themselves from loss. Hence title insurance. Insurers assess the risks and weigh them against the costs. Adding a cost for thousands, which may kill the deal, is usually not one they will insist on for a residential transaction. But if they can transfer much of the risk for $400, they will do it.

And even though the surveyors that perform this service think, and will argue that it is clearly Not a survey, and clearly labeled or noted as being Not a survey, what will everyone but the surveyors refer to it as?

The RE agent tells the client that the lender and TI company require a survey. They tell the client that a survey should cost $200 to $400. The client pays $400 for a MR (or in this case, a PALS (C)), and believes they got the required "survey".

A homeowner with at least a little sophistication in the area of land transactions would look at this and ask "why would I pay $400 for you to tell me what kind of survey I need? If you want the job, figure it out on your own dime and then tell me how much you want for a real survey."


Yeah, the description of the service is similar to a prelim study that would be done for a developer looking to make an investment. But that client knows exactly what they are asking for and what they are getting for their money. For the average homeowner, IMO, it's a rip off.

survey
vb [sɜːˈveɪ ˈsɜːveɪ]
1. (tr) to view or consider in a comprehensive or general way to survey the situation
2. (tr) to examine carefully, as or as if to appraise value to survey oneself in a mirror
3. (Mathematics & Measurements / Surveying) to plot a detailed map of (an area of land) by measuring or calculating distances and height
4. (Mathematics & Measurements / Surveying) Brit to inspect a building to determine its condition and value
5. (Mathematics & Measurements / Surveying) to examine a vessel thoroughly in order to determine its seaworthiness
6. (Mathematics & Measurements / Statistics) (tr) to run a statistical survey on (incomes, opinions, etc.)
n [ˈsɜːveɪ]
1. a comprehensive or general view a survey of English literature
2. a critical, detailed, and formal inspection a survey of the nation's hospitals
3. (Mathematics & Measurements / Surveying) Brit an inspection of a building to determine its condition and value
4. (Mathematics & Measurements / Surveying) a report incorporating the results of such an inspection
5. (Mathematics & Measurements / Surveying)
a. a body of surveyors
b. an area surveyed
6. (Mathematics & Measurements / Statistics) Statistics a random sample
[from French surveoir, from sur-1 + veoir to see, from Latin vidēre]
surveyable adj
Collins English Dictionary – Complete and Unabridged 6th Edition 2003. © William Collins Sons & Co. Ltd 1979, 1986 © HarperCollins Publishers 1991, 1994, 1998, 2000, 2003

I don't understand the message you are trying to convey, Dane. You are giving the broad range of definitions for "survey" to make what point?