California Surveyors Forums

An interesting discussion occurred before the Los Angeles County Board of Supervisors this past Wednesday during the public hearing to appoint the new Director of Public Works and appoint her as the Road Commissioner as required by State law. One Board member asked a series of questions related to the Government Code, PLS Act and the Los Angeles County Charter with respect to whether the Director of Public Works needs a license which allows them to practice land surveying so they can carry out the duties of the "County Engineer/County Surveyor.

The CEO, County Counsel and Director of Human Resources stated that as long as there are sufficient staff under the direction of the Director that have a land surveyor license, the Director can be a post-1982 licensed civil engineer.

If you are interested in watching the discussion, cut and paste the following link into Internet Explorer. It is about 16 minutes long.

http://bosvideoap.co.la.ca.us/mgasp/lac ... ipID=11857

"The CEO, County Counsel and Director of Human Resources stated that as long as there are sufficient staff under the direction of the Director that have a land surveyor license, the Director can be a post-1982 licensed civil engineer."

That's always been my understanding as well. In fact, the Director of Public Works in my city isn't licensed at all. He knows plenty about public works and has been with the department for decades, but he's an administrator rather than a licensed professional. He relies on licensed subordinates to review, approve and sign professional documents.

As a side note the Co. Surveyor a one time was an elected position.

I don't know where it is in the Govt Code, but I've been told that the duties or role of County Surveyor can be delegated to an appropriately licensed subordinate if the PW Director is not properly licensed. My understanding is that the County Charter has to spell that out.

I'm going from the recollection of a conversation that I had a few years back with such a PLS who had been delegated the functions of CS, so this info may be out of date or not fully correct.


Also as a side note: The El Dorado County Surveyor is still an elected position - only one left in the state.

The code relative to County Surveyor is scattered around a bit, most is here

http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/waisg ... n=retrieve

http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/waisg ... n=retrieve


Many counties don't appear to be in "compliance" of the black letter code as it is commonly read.
I know of no test cases or AG Opinions.

The above AG opinion is somewhat related in that it discusses the consolidation of several offices, the transfer of duties and the necessary qualifications of the consolidated office in Trinity County.

However, this AG opinion makes no mention of Gov Code Section 24306 (probably because it does not apply to Trinity County), which provides that in Counties with a population exceeding 4,000,000 (i.e. Los Angeles County), the occupant of the consolidated office only needs to possess the qualifications that are common of each of the separate offices, provided the Board finds that there are sufficient personnel possessing the qualifications employed by the consolidated office to assure that decisions made by the occupant of the consolidated office are based on competent professional advice.

It also clarifies that this section does not permit the occupant of the consolidated office to practice any profession for which a license is required.

Greg,

Our current Acting Director is Los Angeles County's County Surveyor. Since the retirement of our previous Director, he has done two jobs for the last nine months: Acting Director and Chief Deputy Director. It is my opinion that the new Director will delegate the County Surveyor/County Engineer duties to him as our Chief Deputy Director (i.e. second in command) on December 1st. He is a pre-1982 licensed civil engineer, authorized to practice land surveying. The new Director is not authorized or licensed to practice land surveying.

Very Interesting: "It is my opinion that the new Director will delegate the County Surveyor/County Engineer duties to him as our Chief Deputy Director (i.e. second in command) on December 1st..... The new Director is not authorized or licensed to practice land surveying."

Can someone who is not legally authorized to be County Surveyor delegate County Surveyor duties?

From 1850 to 1913, the County Surveyor was an elected office. Upon the adoption of the County Charter in 1913, the County Surveyor became a civil service appointment. From 1913 to 1955, the County Surveyor was an appointed office. In 1937, by ordinance the office of County Engineer was created. In 1955, the County Charter was amended to make the County Engineer also the County Surveyor. At the time, a licensed civil engineer was authorized to practice land surveying.

After January 1, 1982, newly licensed civil engineers were no longer authorized to practice land surveying as defined in the Professional Land Surveyors Act.

The Director of Public Works was created by ordinance in 1984 that consolidated the offices of County Engineer, Road Commissioner and Chief Engineer of the Flood Control District.

The County Surveyor hall of fame is attached:

Maybe they should amend the current ordinances to make it where Director of Public Works in not the County Surveyor? Maybe it's not that simple? I'm not sure what the State Law requiring the Director of PW to be appointed as road commissioner would affect the ability to separate the Director of Public Works from being the County Surveyor would do.

Can't be done by changing a county ordinance. To re-create the separate title County Surveyor in LA County would require an amendment to the County Charter. Something that requires a vote by the citizens of LA County. In 1955, the County Surveyor became the County Engineer through a County Charter amendment. That amendment did not create a controversy for 53 years, even after the law changed in 1982, since all the people that held the County Engineer title were pre-1982 civil engineers who were authorized to practice land surveying.

LA County Charter Section 24 2/3.

The County Surveyor shall be known and referred to as the County Engineer. He shall be a civil engineer authorized to practice civil engineering in the State of California. He shall perform all the duties now or hereafter imposed by law on the County Surveyor, all civil engineering work for the County except that which is now or hereafter imposed on some other County officer by State law or by this Charter, and such other duties as may be prescribed by ordinance of the Board of Supervisors.83

83 1954 Addition. Added by 1955 Stats. Resolution Chap. 20, P. 3788 at 3790.

Is it just me or is there something really obtuse about that ordinance? I wonder what the thinking was back then? Maybe I'm looking too much into it.

Based on my research, the last licensed land surveyor to hold the office of County Surveyor in Los Angeles County was Ivory B. Noble, PLS 317. He served from 1906 to 1915. All those holding the office of County Surveyor after him up until 1955 appear to have been licensed civil engineers (Rockhold, PE 62; Jones, PE 2177; Arnold, PE 329 and Fox, PE 63).

The County created the office of County Engineer in 1937. From 1937 to 1955 the same person held the office of County Surveyor and County Engineer. Since this was the case for 18 years (1937 to 1955), it probably made sense back then to change the County Charter and make it one office where the County Engineer was responsible for all survey duties of the County Surveyor. We call it downsizing today. On paper it eliminated a high level management position that had not been filled for years.

From 1955 to 12/31/1981, the County Engineer was a licensed civil engineer. From 1/1/1982 to 11/30/2008 the County Engineer was a pre-1982 licensed civil engineer.