California Surveyors Forums

for the past few weeks I've read and participated, with interest, about the cases of "fencelines being off etc." Our LS act basically prohibits us from "surveying" for a poor guy who just wants to build a fence in the correct spot. NOW, it is very legal for a fence builder or property owner to measure this out for himself.
Lets separate the owners from the fence guys. . .

The fence guy usually uses an accessors plat. Then he finds some magical place to start then vioalla ! he builds a fence. He is not a surveyor. AND, I've yet to see a fence guy get sued simply for building a fence in the wrong spot. he is protected by his contract.

Now an owner goes out and does the same thing. His actions may cause him to lose property, or be sued by his neighbor for trying to take property.

These folks come to US, Professional Measurers, but We must say. . . if we set lines of corners or whatever, we have to charge boo-coo bucks and file a map and survey around the world and get advice from the stars and the cows etc. . . . . These folks run !!

Now we end up working for the neighbors and sometimes end up in court defending our decisions because the owners had to reley on a sub-professional who didn't know diddly about LAND SURVEYING.

Who better to do the job in the first place. States like Texas, allow a Lot title survey where they set wood stakes and file a plat similar to a corner record.
Maybe we can resolve these "off-line" fence issues if we are allowed to offer our services.

Just a thought?

"Good"

No thanks, folks can build a fence any ole where they would like, but if they want professional advice, then it costs money. There are plenty of folks willing to work for next to nothing, but I am not interested in a race to the bottom for price competition. There really are no shortcuts. Trying to pretend there is a shortcut for BOUNDARY SURVEYING really is a disservice to the public. I do not believe we need to codify mortage surveys. From what I can gather from states where these are done, this type of survey is generally not worth the paper they are printed on.

What am I supposed to do work for minimum wage? Any boundary survey is going to require the expenditure of some level human effort. How much is your time worth to you? If you have employees, how much are you going to pay them, train them, reward them when they turn in first rate efforts? What if you are a small business person and you hope to grow your business? To do the job properly, there needs to be an adequate budget sufficient for the level of effort required, otherwise you will not be able to stay in business.

I think we ought to be trying to raise the profession up. The market works very well to keep prices down.

So then are we are back to the corner records the cheapest of record surveys?

I'm not certain where this dream economy is, however, there is no reward for good work without work in the first place.

Your response, however, is the appropriate one.
With 6 million dollars worth of insurance, over 100,000 dollars of survey truck and supplies, wages, taxes, benefits, office support staff, tax audits, bogus advertising schemes, with their bogus invoices, contemptous clients, I suppose I already work for minimum wage.

Can we at least opt for a "stiff-us" clause, whereby when the client wont pay we can pull back the map, pull our corners and pretend the whole thing didn't happen ??
Sometimes a lien doesn't pay out as far down on the food chain as we are.

I'll send socal some water if you send cencal some work.

Thanks !!

I am not certain how much liability you would assume, if you had a contract which stated you would help a client measure from existing improvements or monuments if you did not apply trigonometric functions to the measurements?

But I would also want to tell them the difference between what I'm measuring and the possible conflict with doing it correctly. I'd also want to the neighors to know this is an approximation.

Living in county that was developed without surveys being recorded, it has become a night mare for surveyors from outside the area or surveyors who feel they are not responsible for unfilled or unrecorded records? It's also a nightmare for the surveyors who want to do a proper job. If we have time we try to educate, but regardless some think it is a sales pitch and pick the cheapest price. If they are lucky, the original and subsequent surveyors performed accurate work, but in 25% + of the cases- great differences occur.

Good, I understand you are frustrated, but if you can hang on people with values succeed. I've seen your posts and I appreciate your professionalism! Unfortunately, we don't know how to make a living and put money away for a rainy day. But all of us should take note and charge appropriately to take us and our valued staff through the rough times. Also you should educate them that some times you have to work extra during the busy time which might bring in work during the slow time. Certainly for valued customers.

Good Luck! We all need it.

Larry

I'm 100% with Dane on this one. No thanks!

What you are talking about is something like a Mortgage Report, or at least a system that allows for unrecorded boundary surveys.

I've worked in states where unrecorded surveys are the norm and where MRs are common.

No matter what kind of note you put on the map (if you provide one) and no matter what the client is told verbally and in writing, and no matter how many times they're told that "This Survey Is Not A Survey", they will still think that a MR is a survey.

Sure, we are capable of going out and measuring more precisely than the average homeowner or fence builder. But we can be precisely wrong in those measurements if we are not performing a proper boundary survey.

For most of the public, if a surveyor sets a stake (IP, nail, wood - anything to mark a point), they put a great amount of weight on it. "There's my property corner. The surveyor set it right there." Anything we do to lessen the quality of that service is a disservice to the public because they won't know the difference.

If you think that you have a difficult time now getting a reasonable fee for a properly prepared survey, go ahead and introduce a legal provision for Mortgage Reports and/or unrecorded half-azzed, close-enough-to-build-th-fence surveys. Do that and you will then be up against potential clients saying "You want $2500 to survey my lot! Why, my neighbor paid just $475 for a survey of his last summer. You must be crazy!" And they KNOW that their neighbor's survey was a survey because he saw the map and the title block said "Prepared by ACME Surveying, Inc.", and you won't convince him otherwise.

Unrecorded surveys bring on a whole set of problems of their own. I'm sure you've run across the occasional unrecorded survey here and there and experienced the dilemmas that they can introduce to a boundary problem.

Just imagine that on every job, having no record of most of the monumentation you find, and only the occasional tagged pipe with a map to back it up.

No, the problem isn't that many of our surveys require that an RS be filed, or our fees to do it. I've heard of many jurisdictions that charge several hundered, or even a couple thousand just to check an RS. There's a real problem when it costs as much, or nearly so for the map checker to compare closures to dimensions on a map and check for the statutory content as it does for the responsible surveyor to have prepared it to begin with.

The county where I do the bulk of my work is very reasonable. They could probably double their rate and still be reasonable (shhhh. don't let them know I said that). But they realize that they are not responsible for the boundary determination, nor is it their place to critique my logo, my North arrow, or my symbols.

Just check to ensure that the information is presented clearly. If they do some error checking, I appreciate that. But it's my map. If they stick to what they are supposed to do according to the PLSA, it should be a very rare thing for a map review to legitimately cost over $500.

I've also heard of jurisdictions which apply ridiculous standards to what constitutes "Material Discrepancy". Is a few hundredths in a monument position position or in the length of a 300' line material? Is an angular difference of a few seconds between lines material?

Really, the magnitude of difference depends upon the situation. What might be considered a material discrepancy on a city lot might not be hardly enough to give a thought to on a rural 1/4 section. It might be appropriate to file an RS on 0.3' difference between record and measured on that city lot, but if you find a foot and a half on a piece of mountain timberland, it's a CR. Yet I've heard reports that at least one jurisdiction fairly close to me was making a blanket assessment that any difference more than a hundredth or two is material. Such lack of judgment can needlessly add hundreds or thousands of dollars in drafting and review fees to a survey.

If you want to make changes that bring down the overall cost to the clients without diminishing the quality of service, focus on trying to change those types of things within the basic framework of our existing PLSA.

Just my opinion.

The problem is not that we need a “cheap” way to survey but that we need to re-establish the cost of filing a Record of Survey. If the Record of Survey review fee was $0 and the recording fees was just $10.00, how many of you would file more Records of Survey?

The RS was originally intended to be an inexpensive way to get survey information into the public record. Unfortunately, with economics and governmental agency fees being what they are, the RS fee in most counties got jacked up way beyond what was intended. Some counties charge more, today, for the RS than they did just 25 years ago for a Parcel Map!

The argument against this is, of course, that the review of the RS takes county employee’s time. Granted, but when the time charged against checking the RS exceeds the time spent in the field performing the survey AND the time spent in the office drafting, something is very, very wrong. And a lot of what is wrong is the interpretation of Wheeler v County of San Bernardino.

It would be interesting to see if there are more RSs files in Orange County per capita than in other counties. John Canis had the foresight to slash the fees for Records of Survey in Orange County to $0, except the recording fee. Ray Mathe has had the decency and foresight to maintain that policy.

We do not need a “cheap” way to survey. We need a revolt that will bring the cost of the RS in line with its intention. Perhaps statutorily removing and liability for errors on RS from the County Surveyor and placing it squarely where it belongs…on the surveyor preparing the RS; requiring proof of liability insurance (like we do to drive a car) and cutting what the CS checks to what is listed in the LS Act (less “…accuracy of mathematical data…” from §8766(a)(1) – the RS does NOT impart Constructive Notice – it merely memorializes the field work performed in a given situation).

Ha !

I'm writing up a ROS proposal right now, where the client wants me to just "locate" the corners of his parcel. The parcel was redefined via Lot line adjustment and the engineer who did the LLA told the owner he did not need an ROS.
Now a development process is underway and the PA requires all parcel corners to be exposed. they dont want a "location stake" they want to see the "yellow marker" as they put it.

BUT All of you are correct!! in this case, the county review fee is 1/3 of my price for preparing the entire ROS.

Also, to let youall know, I'm not looking to cheapen the industry at all, I'm more sick of the rebels out there misleading the public with their lack of knowledge, staking things in the wrong place. How many times have you heard from a client or neighbor, "but I had it surveyed" or "the city came out and surveyed it for me" or "The guy from the power company told me the pole was the property line"

One of my clients neighbors placed an 8-foot block wall (unpermitted), beween a front and rear power pole "because the meter reader said so. . . "
The entire neighborhood stood behind this well liked citizen. Then Me the one with an Orange target on. . . indicated the wall is 4 feet off.

My client rammed the whole thing down with a big bumpered one-ton truck.


Scheeze !!! After a few months I was able to complete the survey AND safely set corners.

All I'm saying, is that the amatures are killing us . . . What can we do?

signed

"Big Cy"

Oh Boy, Good, you just pressed one of my hot buttons.

Unfortunately, nothing in the SMA requires an RS when preparing and filing a Lot Line Adjustment (LLA). There are some cases where a field topo survey can be performed to determine where to put the adjusted line.

The LLA is, in reality, a “paper function” as it stands now.

In my mind, this is a clear case of criminal negligence on the part of anyone who files an LLA and does not also set monuments at the newly established corners and file an RS to memorialize the new monuments. And, YES, I Mean Criminal Negligence.

Without monuments placed at the newly established corners, no one knows where the newly established line sits. The LLA is of no use to anyone. The land surveyor who willfully and knowingly fails to set monuments at the termini and angle points of the newly established line fails “…to protect others from a risk deriving from [their] conduct…” (from definition of criminal negligence on Lawyers.com – Glossary of Legal terms).

Without knowing where the new line is, fences, walls, buildings cannot be erected, people cannot properly be excluded. At some point, the next poor sod who comes along to survey the boundary is stuck with having to file the Record of Survey. The LLA preparer has skates without completing the job.

On case I tripped across was an LLA filed over 15 years previously. In the intervening 15 years, the cost of an RS had risen 1,000%. Since the party who ordered the LLA still held title, they were significantly injured financially, in my book.

If any portion of the statutes needs to change, it is this one.

OK…calming down…

"The parcel was redefined via Lot line adjustment and the engineer who did the LLA told the owner he did not need an ROS."

Soooo, was the Engineer the individual who wrote or supervised the writing of the new descriptions for the proposed newly created lots? And if so, did the agency who signed off on that LLA accept those descriptions?

I agree that a Record of Survey is not required when performing a LLA and an agency cannot require a Record of Survey in order to complete the LLA process...all unless during the course of you performing the LLA, an requirement define in 8762 is triggered.

I was asked to stake an addition to an existing house. The client gave me the approved and recorded deeds for the LLA. IN addition they had a plat which showed an existing house 5.0 feet from the property line. I called the engineer practicing 80 miles away and asked him if he recorded an ROS? He stated it wasn't required. I explained to him what established mean and by him locating existing improvements relative to his proposed lines he was establishing the line. I also told him his description may not follow what his plat shows. He stated he wasn't going to file an ROS because he had retired in the last 6 months and I could turn him over to the board.

I told the client I would need to file a ROS to perform the improvement staking or they would need to get the engineer to be accountable. Needless to say I didn't get the job. I'll bet, dollars to doughnuts, someone who was willing to do the staking without an ROS did it.

I've always told people they would have to have monuments and an ROS.

On the other hand I have a City consultant checking my Proposed LLA and description and he's stating I have to prepare separate plats for each adjustment because the bearings don't follow the proposed ROS LLA map? 180 degrees out! Pre82 engineer. I wonder if he's capable of calculating an ROS.

Larry,

The engineer says to go ahead and turn him in to the Board? Well, go ahead and do it. It may not mean anything to him because he's retired that they take his license away (a testament to his lack of professionalism), but if he gets fined enough to hire another surveyor to complete the RS, I bet it will mean something to him.

I had some friends that moved out to Texas. They moved back and when they sold their home, Texas required some sort of "survey". My friend was expecting something around $2000 or so. The surveyor told him it would be $300. My friend said, "send me the contract" and had the survey done. Basically it's a 8.5x11 sheet with dimensions to the "property lines".

How they do it, or even WHY they do it for that little is beyond me.

If we start doing "fenceline" surveys for several hundred dollers (I don't think any of us would go as low as $300) then the public will catch on and always request a "fenceline" survey. Then you'll get caught up in all sorts of litigation, and only for $700.00! No thank you!

Eric, I believe the one you are describing is what Evan referred to, and as I am familiar with from the Colorado days, a Mortgage Inspection Survey.

Typically, those just depict the structure with the property lines and possibly directional arrows showing drainage, hopefully away from the structure. Lenders in Colorado (in the 80's) required these for every transaction and some companies performed these exclusively. Most respectable land surveying or engineering companies refused to do them, unless it was near the tail end of a subdivision that they did all the work on.

Usually priced very cheaply, poorly performed and caused a great deal of confusion for the consumers and the lenders.

We do not need those here.

Ric

DON'T USE THE WORD "SURVEY" AND "MORTGAGE INSPECTION" NEXT TO EACH OTHER!

Isnt there some wording in the LS act regarding when the use of complex math is necessary to locate a boundary line, a survey must be filed?? It seems to me that one county used that quote to mandate ROS with a LLA..

Also, I've been told by a public official, that a "fenceline" location survey falls under landscape surveys and is exempt from ROS. Maybe this is how tha amatures and unlicensed get away with these things. Still when they do it wrong, stuff hits the fan AND the REAL LAND surveyor is left to defend himself.

SO !!!
I'm thinking the public view of Us Professionals is still pretty poopy.
Evident, by Folks believing the fence builder, the meter reader, the counter planner at the public agency. OH yeah, I had a clients neighbor actually tell me that he took a survey course in college 20 years ago, so he knows just as much about surveying as I do, so I'd better watch myself and get it right.

Does this mean that if I were building a fence ? . . . I'd be a genius ??

"good" bad and ugly

Ask that public official to show you a definition for a "landscape survey". See what happens.

Ric

Thats what I thought.

No such thing eh ?

Besides, If I had a dollar for everyone who said to me "so. . .What kind of landscaping do you do" ?

Harumph...harumph…harumph…

The “landscape survey” is VERY carefully and FULLY defined in §8727 of the PLS Act.

§8727 reads as follows:

Surveys made exclusively for geological or landscaping purposes, which DO NOT INVOLVE THE DETERMINATION OF ANY PROPERTY LINE, do not constitute surveying within the meaning of this chapter. (caps mine for emphasis – sorry for the all caps, but html tags are not turned on for use on this board).

Also note the difference between §6731.1 of the PE Act and §8726 of the PLS Act. The first two sub-paragraphs are identical. The third and final sub-paragraph of §6731.1 is almost identical to sub-paragraph (m) of §8726; the exceptions are the called out sub-paragraphs within each section. Note that at no point in either the PLS Act or the PE Act are post-82 Civil Engineers granted the authority to locate boundary lines, monuments or the like. That is the sole province of the PLS in California.

So, we see that from our venerable California Business and Professions Code, that post-82 Civil Engineers, Geologists Landscape Architects, Architects and landscapers may perform surveys for geological and landscaping purposes. Post-82 Civil Engineers may even “…(l)ocate…, relocate…, establish…, reestablish…, or retrace… the alignment or elevation for any of the fixed works embraced within the practice of civil engineering, as described in Section 6731…[and]…[d]etermine…the configuration or contour of the earth's surface or the position of fixed objects above, on, or below the surface of earth by applying the principles of trigonometry or photogrammetry. However, they may NOT relate such items to and boundary or monuments set to mark such a boundary.

Hey! I didn’t get a Harumph from that guy over there!

Actually, I have searched through the State Code for a definition of "Landscape Survey" without any other mention except for what is mentioned in Section 8727. I have an inquiry in with the Landscape Architect's Board for their definition, if it exists.

Interesting enough, in the Landscape Architect's Act, Section 5641.3 reads as follows:

5641.3. Chapter Exceptions, Exemptions - Architects, Professional Engineers, and Land Surveyors

An architect, professional engineer or land surveyor licensed or registered under the statutes of this state, insofar as the licensed or registered professional practices the profession for which he or she is licensed or registered, is exempt from the provisions of this chapter, except that an architect, professional engineer, or land surveyor may not use the title "landscape architect" unless he or she holds a license as required under this chapter.

So, it appears that the mystical "Landscape Survey" is exempt from the PLS Act...but Architects, Engineers and Land Surveyors are exempt from licensure under the Landscape Architect's Act.

Yeah...there was a whole lot thought put into this one!

Ric

This following service is currently offered by a California based surveying company. I believe the owner is a California LS and possibly RCE as well.
_____________________________________________
Package A - Fence Line Survey
A fence line survey should be conducted before any fence or wall is constructed on your property. We will start by tracking down, in printed or digital format, available records associated with your property. Typically, this will include tract maps, parcel maps, records of survey, corner records, assessor maps, benchmarks, deeds, and official records. We will then compile this information to form a "paper boundary" that will illustrate graphically the boundary based on available record data. We will then set construction stakes sufficient to construct a fence or wall inside your property line. No property corners will be set."
_____________________________________________

Comments anyone?

I forgot to mention that this firm brokers the services statewide.

No problems with this. Of course, should the work trip any of the triggers of §8762, they would have to file an ROS or face the consequences.

According to the firm's website, the fence line survey does not include the service of "boundary establishment". Neither does Package "B", called a "basic boundary survey", which includes the options of replacing missing "corners" and filing a corner record. Not until you get into the ROS requirements (package upgrade) is the service of "boundary establishment" provided.

I didn't know it was possible to perform a boundary survey, even a "basic" one, without establishing a boundary. Maybe those fence builders are onto something. Who needs a license if you're not establishing boundaries?

Fenceline Survey - A survey which notes the angular relationship of the fence for the length of the fence. The relationship of the adjoining posts and the linear footage to determine the materials need for construction. Size of posts, higth of fence, type of barrier, ie, wire, board etc.

Therefore you could survey an existing fence or prepare a drawing of a propose fence with out the need for a RS.

But if asked where to place a fence relative to a boundary, this is a boundary determination survey and most of the time will require a RS or at least a corner record delieanting your line points. NO EXCEPTIONS.

We need to educate the client. Bottom lime is if you let them know the cost % of your work vs the value of the property vs the value of the fence if it must be moved and the liabilty, our work is reasonably cheap.

That line of thought has worked for this office for the past 25 years.

PS - don't reasearch my definitions, I made it up.

This is from "Murchie's" post on the thread about RCE's:

"I have a letter from Cindi Christenson PE, Executive officer of BORPELS dated 6/24/2004 that states:"

"A licensed land surveyor or licensed civil engineer establishes, and is subject to the record of survey filing requirements, when he or she represents beyond reasonable doubt or dispute, the location, relocation, establishment, re-establishment or retracement of a boundary, or property line, to another party pusuant to the provisions of 8762(b) 1-5 of the PLSA. This representation includes the act of causing a boundary or property line to be accepted, or recognized; to prove or demonstrate the location of the boundary or property line; the setting, or re-setting or replacement of a corner; by setting reference or witness monuments; or by referencing a boundary, or property line by showing dimensional ties from the boundary, or property line to physical features, buildings, fences, monuments, etc. located on the survey. This also includes information shown on an ALTA Survey"
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I could use a little clarification. If a boundary survey is performed and a ROS is NOT required, is that considered estabishing a boundary, as defined in Ms. Christenson's letter?
(I've include 8762(b) 1-5 below for convenience.)
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8762. Records of survey
(a) Except as provided in subdivision (b), after making a field survey in conformity with the practice of land surveying, the licensed surveyor or licensed civil engineer may file with the county surveyor in the county in which the survey was made, a record of the survey.
(b) Notwithstanding subdivision (a), after making a field survey in conformity with the practice of land surveying, the licensed land surveyor or licensed civil engineer shall file with the county surveyor in the county in which the field survey was made a record of the survey relating to land boundaries or property lines, if the field survey discloses any of the following:
(1) Material evidence or physical change, which in whole or in part does not appear on any subdivision map, official map, or record of survey previously recorded or properly filed in the office of the county recorder or county surveying department, or map or survey record maintained by the Bureau of Land Management of the United States.
(2) A material discrepancy with the information contained in any subdivision map, official map, or record of survey previously recorded or filed in the office of the county recorder or the county surveying department, or any map or survey record maintained by the Bureau of Land Management of the United States. For purposes of this subdivision, a “material discrepancyâ€￾ is limited to a material discrepancy in the position of points or lines, or in dimensions.
(3) Evidence that, by reasonable analysis, might result in materially alternate positions of lines or points, shown on any subdivision map, official map, or record of survey previously recorded or filed in the office of the county recorder or the county
2009 Professional Land Surveyors’ Act 15
surveying department, or any map or survey record maintained by the Bureau of Land Management of the United States.
(4) The establishment of one or more points or lines not shown on any subdivision map, official map, or record of survey, the positions of which are not ascertainable from an inspection of the subdivision map, official map, or record of survey.
(5) The points or lines set during the performance of a field survey of any parcel described in any deed or other instrument of title recorded in the county recorder’s office are not shown on any subdivision map, official map, or record of survey.
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"If a boundary survey is performed and a ROS is NOT required, is that considered establishing a boundary, as defined in Ms. Christenson's letter?"

In general, no. The fact that §8762(b) matters are not disclosed by the survey implies that the boundary location has already been established by other means, thus the survey is only memorializing the established location.

Note that the Christenson letter does not purport to comprehensively define the concept of establishment.

.