California Surveyors Forums

Does anyone have a chronological list of the types of fences and the materials used? I'm not looking for a specific history on barbed wire fences, just a summary of what types of fences were used and when.

It seems important to have something like this so that when your 1801 deed calls for a fence, and you find a barbed wire fence (only used after 1850), you can deduce that this is not the same fence that was called for in the deed.

Cheers,
Ben

google "barbed wire fences" and you will find a ton of data

... that 1850 wire in a 1801 location could be a rebuild of the original

in the past we found that barbed wire was not used until around 1900

No one has a chronoligical list of the types of fences and materials used, that I know of. The reason no one maintains such a list is because this type of data is generally irrelevant. Why is it irrelevant? It is irrelevant because what is at the center issue of all boundary resolution, is the intent of the parties. So if we look at the intent of the parties, what we are trying to find is evidence that IS relevant to that particular deed.

Let's take your example of an 1801 deed that calls for a fence and see where we wind up. In my mind we have a whole lot of evidence to look for, long before we even start to consider what type of wire ,if any was used on the fence. The call for the fence is a call for a monument and there will have to be a search made for it. What are we likely to find at the fence location? What if we find no evidence of the fence at all? What if we find THE FENCE, AND IT IS in no uncertain terms the fence and we also find from the fence location that it is in the wrong location based upon the terms of the deed description by an excessive amount either encumbering the lands of others or not fully conveying the full extent of land due the grantee? What if you find the remains of several old fences, all within several feet of each and/or within several feet of the deed location? What if the call for the fence is for parcel that is now located in downtown Sacramento?
What if the fence is now a brand new chain link and it is .20' of a foot away from where the deed corner lands?

So what if it is not the original called for fence, in the called for location per the deed?

How about this for a twist- in 1923 A RECORD OF SURVEY was done and pipes were set and the location shown on the 1923 map has been improved and occupied to ever since the map recorded. Now you do a survey and you find the remains of the called for fence 30 feet west of the 1923 iron pipes. You even go to the trouble to have a wood expert verifiy the age of the fence posts and without a doubt the fence posts are from the period around of 1801.

Now what?


The answers to these questions and many,many other equally important questions, in view of ALL the relevant evidence and the intention of the parites , will be the basis of my professional opinion as to the location described by the subject deed.

I want to look up your reference Aaron. The Mount Diablo Suveyors Historical Society has a display of different types of barb wire, and a time period would be helpful to know the different types of wire for different time periods.

As Dane said, I disagree a little. The time period of a fence, can be good evidence that the found evidence is the fence talked about in the deed. Example: If you have a deed calling to the fence in the 1920, and you find pieces of barb wire similar to the wire used for that time period, you have good evidence the current fence is the same fence called for in the deed, so the timeframe of different wires produced, and used, is relevant.

Dane,
I'm surprised you don't find the relevancy of proving a called for monument by its physical characteristics. The intent of the parties comes from the writings of the conveyance and the actions of the parties at the time of the conveyance not the actions of a fence builder using the platted bearings and distances (that just so happen to show that the brand new chain link fence is .20' of a foot away from where the deed corner lands.)

If an 1804 deed calls for a fence and you find an ancient wire fence. Is this the same fence that was called for in the deed?

Danes answer is “So what if it is not the original called for fence, in the called for location per the deed?”

The correct answer is NO, wire fences were not used until at least 1816. Now answering whether this fence controls the boundary, that is another question and like you say, ALL pertinent evidence must be factored.

Aaron, thanks for the reference. I found this surveying “story” very interesting:
http://search.cartserver.com/search/sea ... rds=%23910

Some more food for thought from Brown’s Evidence and Procedures:
In 1928 a fence corner was accepted as a section corner. For the next 22 years 15 or so surveyors accepted the old fence corner to be correct and filed maps saying such. Then a retracing surveyor found the original “Set rock mound 3 feet south of a 12-foot-high bounder.” All the expert testimony, reputation, and recorded plats could not overcome the fact that the true corner was 70 feet east of the accepted fence corner.

County of Alpena v. County of Tuolumne, 49 Cal. 2nd 757 (1958) 332 P. 2d 449

Ben

Ben:

One of the problems with trying to discuss current cases with which we a working to our peers on this or any other forum is that we cannot put enough detail into the post to make it truly relevant.

In Dane’s defense, without a lot of other evidence that leads me to work with it, I usually treat fences as just fences until something else comes along that makes me think otherwise.

As to the case of the accepted fence corner in Alpena v. County of Tuolumne, I would argue, today, that the passage of 22 years and reliance on the post has given it a great deal of credibility…and marketable title! (BTW – those are NOT issues that I can determine and declare – they are issues that I would share with my client and the attorney.)

A fence that can be determined to pre-date a deed may well be the fence described in the deed; it also may well be not! The fence that clearly post-dates the deed may well be a perpetuation of the original fence described in the deed; it also may well just be a fence.

I remember the story of a section corner stone near a fence post in Oklahoma. Everyone claimed the fence post was clearly set to the stone. Then, an elderly gentleman remembered that no one really knew where the section corner stone had been set. They got together and built a fence. One of the farmers eventually found the stone with his plow and moved the stone to fence.

Check out Mr. Brown’s article in the member’s section: Sometimes a Fence is Just a Fence.

Cheers…

Ian

Ben,
I think you missed the point I was trying to make. Its not about one upping each other. But rather, what IS at issue here is understanding the role of the boundary surveyor. Now, do I know what the extent of that role is? No I most certainly do not, even after 25 years of surveying. After 25 years, I am still learning and I will continue to learn until I take a dirt nap. Most certainly, knowing what wire was used when is , if any, is a valuable piece of evidence. But, it is still only a PIECE of the entire evidence picture.