Dave Woolley and Mike Pallamary.

[Aaron Smith]

WOW!!! Exactly what we have been dealing with for quite some time…. A total twist of information so Mr. Woolley can abuse the Officers, Executive Director, and AMS!

He says we haven’t seen anything in almost a year. Apparently Dave has a short memory or can’t really remember what we talk about at Board meetings. In November of 2013, Orange County requested we look into a succession plan for CLSA and AMS. Well, you don’t put in place a succession plan, that’s for a business to prepare succession of ownership in their own corporation, but we all understood the intent and that is why the board adopted the Preparedness Plan. A committee was formed under the direction of President Butcher and volunteers volunteered, Joe Padilla, Rich Ray, Jerry Jones and myself. President Butcher asked for one of us to volunteer to chair the committee, so I did. We worked through the holidays and prepared the report Dave attached for the February meeting.

At the February meeting Dave provided us with his list from his attorneys and Mr. Lamoreaux asked a few questions so we took the contract back for our committee to review and make changes per the comments. We discussed it briefly between March and April, but due to my schedule, not much happened, so I guess I owe the membership and CLSA an apology…. SORRY. We reviewed it more in depth in June and provided a report to the Board for the July meeting and in essence, AMS wanted their legal counsel to review it before it went to the Board for approval. Primarily, because if their counsel had changes, they didn’t want the Board to see another version. Our committee thought it was a good idea. So almost a year…… not by my math! Although the accusation of almost a year, makes CLSA look really bad and isn’t that the objective here?

This is where it gets really interesting. A discussion was held at the board meeting as to whether or not we should list all of the duties for AMS, and what exact fee will be apid. Well, my point was that if you list everything, that can get sticky, when do you stop or go on things that aren’t exactly specified in the “LIST”? It’s like legal counsel, does your attorney list everything they are going to do to represent you before he takes the job….. NO WAY! They will do what is needed to represent you. Do they give an exact fee for their work before they start? NO WAY? You will pay what it takes based on the hourly rates. One difference is the agreement says AMS will work within the budget, so that’s just like a not exceed fee. Because Orange County really wanted to see a list that explains the expenses and what we are paying for, we attached it. Dave says all those things "rent, repairs and maintenance, utilities, alarm security system, office furnishings, desks, filing cabinets, office supplies...office equipment and maintenance, software etc." are paid for by CLSA to AMS. Again, let’s twist it so Ian and AMS can look relay bad! However, what it says is here is a list of expenses INCLUDED in the management fee! OOOOOPS, maybe people weren’t supposed to catch on.

Here is the irony; Dave made such a ruckus over this being a part of the contract that we added it so people could see what was included in the fee to AMS, now he turns it back on AMS. UNREAL! Maybe he doesn’t understand business, but part of operating a business (which AMS is and as Ian so nicely points out) is paying the rent, utilities, furniture, …etc. Everyone’s fee or rates included those same overhead expenses. If your business does not, you will more than likely be out of business real soon and start planning.

Unfortunately, I must say, now I have wasted yet another hour on this matter, like I have done for so many Saturdays. My wife tells me my kids are growing older and are beautiful. I take her word, and hopefully I will start spending quality time with them and not on this!

By the way, I know Dave will send me 1800 pages of stuff proving I am wrong, and I really don’t care because I won’t read it and I don’t care what he has to say to me. I think the association should really see what is going on and unfortunately Dave unwittingly showed himself.

I served as President in 2010, and I can say, I know how many hundreds of people work each day for the Association and I, as well as many thank you and I say keep up the good work. We will get through this time together and do great things again.

As far as praising AMS….. YOU BETCHA YA! Seeing what AMS has done for us, I praise AMS and especially the Officers. I personally want to thank Rolland, Jay, Roger, Ian, Mike, Jeff, Dorothy, Crissy, Steve and Annette….. SO APPRECIATIVE OF YOUR EFFORTS!

[PDub]

So the question I keep hearing asked, but not answered is "Why is the CLSA continuing to lose money?" If we are legitimately spending more than we take in every year why aren't we raising the dues? Is misappropriation of funds being suggested here? If so, is there a mechanism in place to investigate that? Since we're not that large of an organization, is it really that difficult? Call me naive. I have no other agenda than wanting the CLSA to continue as a resource and advocate for us.

[marois]

In response to Aaron's post, it would seem that the BOD heard all the concerns, issues and reviewed the contract, a motion was made, seconded and approved to accept the contract.

Regarding CLSA losing money attached is a copy of the end of year balance sheet for 2013, which was available on the "Member's Only" section of the web site. It shows CLSA made a little over $42,000.00.

I appreciated Mark Moore's efforts, but I'm no CPA and I'm guessing he is not either. Also may be a good idea for Mr. Moore to become a member, since he considers it his duty to inform the membership.

Armand Marois
PLS 5941
(760) 931-8700 ext 240
amarois@bhaincsd.com

[land butcher]

I suppose when the story is figured out there will no longer be contradictions from all the people standing on one side of the fence.

[7702]

but I'm no CPA and I'm guessing he is not either.

No need to guess, I stated numerous times that I'm not a CPA. My aunt is though, and I am grateful for her tutelage.

Also may be a good idea for Mr. Moore to become a member

Thank you for the invitation.

I inquired about renewing my membership at the Chapter meeting last Thursday, and it was suggested that I wait until the start of 2015 in order to get my money's worth. Meanwhile, I guess I will continue being a low contributing non-member until the dust settles.

It's nice to see that 2013 was a good year financially. Still a lot of questions remaining to be answered though, especially about those pesky income tax forms and trying to figure out just where all the money is being spent.

What about 2009 through 2012 and 2014? Can you post the end year balance sheets for 2009-2012 and explain why 2014 is predicted to be $50,000 in the red?

Thank you!

[7702]

Also may be a good idea for Mr. Moore to become a member, since he considers it his duty to inform the membership.

Cut me a little slack, please. I could have remained anonymous and harassed anybody that didn't share my views. Seems you were in full support of another forum poster who utilized such tactics.

Thank you.

[Aaron Smith]

To All:
CLSA is not losing money. Don't review the budget, which is very conservative and that concept is explained every year at the November and February meeting so membership is aware of the budget process and development. We generally stay well enough under budget on the expense side because of what AMS, the Officers, and committee's do to keep their expenses as it relates to their budget low.

[TTaylor]

Hmmmm. I guess they are only for some to follow. However, not if you are from Santa Rosa.

I will not take any time to refute Mr. Smith's post item by item. I will however, point out that Mr. Smith's take on the ideas of a succession plan as expounded by Mr. Wolley are just plain and simple missing the mark.

The succession plan is for CLSA - NOT AMS. (yet another obfuscation of the facts) It is for the protection and benefit of CLSA in ANY circumstance where things change including disasters, changes in laws, and changes in the relationships between CLSA and its contractors.

I, for one, could not care less what AMS' succession plan is for their business. It is CLSA that needs better business practices.

Why would Dave and others recommend this for CLSA (not AMS)? To ensure the long term health and viability of the Association regardless of any changes that may occur.

VOTE NO! On the By-laws changes and the expulsion of Mr. Wolley.

[bryanmundia]

Here is the irony; Dave made such a ruckus over this being a part of the contract that we added it so people could see what was included in the fee to AMS, now he turns it back on AMS. UNREAL! Maybe he doesn’t understand business, but part of operating a business (which AMS is and as Ian so nicely points out) is paying the rent, utilities, furniture, …etc. Everyone’s fee or rates included those same overhead expenses. If your business does not, you will more than likely be out of business real soon and start planning.

Aaron, I do understand how a business is run, since my degree is in Business Administration (with a minor in Economics I might add).

Look at it this way, AMS is consulting not just for CLSA, but from my understanding, there are a number of associations that AMS manages. With that being said, take the money that CLSA pays to AMS and multiply it by the number of associations we know that AMS manages. That is a pretty large number in my opinion!

Now, as for rent and all of those other tangible items that are expensed in the proposed contract. The CLSA central office is LOCATED WITHIN DORTHY'S PERSONAL HOUSE. A house that based on zillow's estimate is worth approximately 300k based on comparable sales in the area. Zillow also lists that the approximate rent for a house in the area is approximately $1,900 per month. Houses in the area are 2 bedroom, 1-2 bath homes so just assume that CLSA is renting 1 room from AMS, here is a list of approximate expenses based on that model:

Remember, these expenses are in total, not divided into the number of associations that AMS manages.

Rent: $950.00 per month ($1,900 divided by 2) or $11,400.00 per year.

Repairs and Maintenance: $200.00 per month or $2,400.00 per year

Insurance: $1,000.00 per month, $12,000.00 per year

Utilities: Now, for utilities, really the only thing that we really should be paying for is electricity since there is no need to use water, sewer, storm, etc. Lets just say that the electric bill for a 2 bedroom home is $200.00 per month, that is $100.00 per month or $1,200.00 per year.

Alarm Security system: $50.00 per month, $600.00 per year

Office furnishings: $100.00 per month, $1,200.00 per year

Conference room: Does one exist at the central office or do they rent one? I have no idea what this would cost.

Office supplies: $300.00 per month, $3,600.00 per year

Office equipment and maintenance: Lets say they buy a new computer every year for CLSA (highly unlikely but still) that may cost $1,000.00? Software maybe $1,000.00 a year is pretty generous. The rest of the equipment, even if bought new every year would total maybe $5,000.00. So a total cost of $7,000.00 per year in that section.

Full staff: Who are the paid staff members? Is it just Dorthy or does she have employees? I believe I read in a post that Dorthy’s salary is approximately $45,000.00 per year.

Now with all of that considered, the total cost for a year, if CLSA is picking up the tab for everything (which we know not to be true since AMS manages other associations) is $39,400.00 without including Dorthy’s salary. If you include her salary then the total cost is approximately $84,400.00.

I believe I read that we pay approximately $185k a year to AMS for both Dorthy’s salary and AMS service fees. How does this model make any sense to anyone? That is almost 100k IN PURE PROFIT to AMS per year! Now, my numbers may be off, but not by a significant amount in my opinion. I say it is time to possibly look for another company, or at least shop around to see if we are getting the best bang for the buck. Don’t you?

Also, since you might know more than I, please enlighten me if any of my estimates as to the associated business costs are off and I would be more than happy to revise my post with the correct calculations. I am very confident that even with the highest of numbers you would provide we still would not even be close to justifying such a high cost per year for AMS.

By the way, I know Dave will send me 1800 pages of stuff proving I am wrong, and I really don’t care because I won’t read it and I don’t care what he has to say to me. I think the association should really see what is going on and unfortunately Dave unwittingly showed himself.

Pretty sad that you admit to not wanting to read a post because even if it is factually true, it does not coincide with your beliefs.

Reminds me of a very famous quote, "You want the truth? You can't handle the truth!"

[TTaylor]

Stop playing the martyr card. It is really tiresome and disingenuous.

You choose to spend your time however you want. Just like all adults. To spend time on something you think is important enough to do so and then complain about it is just plain sad.

Either don't waste your time or quit whining.

[marois]

Brian you are making a couple of bad assumptions. First, Dorothy's office (AKA The Central Office) is not in her residence. AMS office is located at 526 South E Street - Santa Rosa, CA.
Second, there are several staff members that I am aware of - Crissy, Jessica and Katie for sure and I imagine other temp staff as needed during busy times

Also, it seems that some people are bent out of shape that AMS and the Executive Director are paid for providing a service. As surveyors we expect to be paid for our services why do we expect differently of the CLSA management company.

Armand Marois
PLS 5941
(760) 931-8700 ext 240
amarois@bhaincsd.com

[7702]

Also, it seems that some people are bent out of shape that AMS and the Executive Director are paid for providing a service.

I don't think anybody expects them to work for free, but I think pretty much everybody expects straight up answers as to how much they're paid and just what they're providing. I'm surprised that you don't seem to care.

Thank you.

[bryanmundia]

Brian you are making a couple of bad assumptions. First, Dorothy's office (AKA The Central Office) is not in her residence. AMS office is located at 526 South E Street - Santa Rosa, CA.
Second, there are several staff members that I am aware of - Crissy, Jessica and Katie for sure and I imagine other temp staff as needed during busy times

Also, it seems that some people are bent out of shape that AMS and the Executive Director are paid for providing a service. As surveyors we expect to be paid for our services why do we expect differently of the CLSA management company.

Armand Marois
PLS 5941
(760) 931-8700 ext 240
amarois@bhaincsd.com

Armand,

So you are telling me that a private residence is not Dorothy's house and is solely used for business purposes? The house by the way has a really nice boat parked in front of it as well, I would assume that is AMS company property.

If it is not Dorothy's private residence,

Also, how busy can AMS be that it would need such a list of employees and are all of these employees working on CLSA items? From my understanding of house association management works, you have a particular representative that you answer to at the management company. With that being said, assume that Crissy, Jessica and Katie are all full time employees and make as much as Dorothy. That still is only an additional $135,000.00. Again, it must be stated that we already know CLSA IS NOT AMS'S ONLY CLIENT AS A MATTER OF FACT THERE ARE AT LEAST 5 OTHER ORGANIZATIONS WHICH UTILIZE AMS'S SERVICES THAT I COULD EASILY FIND. So essentially CLSA is picking up the tab for everyone and then all other associations beyond CLSA that AMS manages are pure profit.

I appreciate your response but please do not try and pull a sheet of BS over my eyes Armand.

[marois]

Okay Brian first thing lose the attitude! Yes I am telling you that this is a place of business, I have actually visited the Central Office, not just viewed it via Google Earth. You are correct CLSA is not the only client of AMS, but I believe it is the largest client.
And you feel these are serious issues take them to your Chapter have them put together a list and send to the BOD to be placed on the next meeting’s agenda.

BTW anyone can contact the Central Office and ask for information the phone number is (707) 578-6016. Also there is a reason I post my phone number, free feel to call!

Armand Marois
PLS 5941
(760) 931-8700 ext 240
amarois@bhaincsd.com

[7702]

Bryan,

According to the deed Mr. Pallamary posted, the "real" property where CLSA'S Central office is located is not AMS property, so I wouldnt be surprised if the boat isn't either.

[E_Page]

A lot of the subject matter of this thread is off the rails as far as I can tell.

I haven't looked at the financials but am concerned if other intelligent surveyors can look at them and not make heads nor tails out of them. Whether the errors on tax forms are inconsequential or not, there should not be several errors on each form.

Going by that standard, we can regularly misidentify the monuments we locate to base boundaries on, mislabel the adjoiners and the streets. As long as we get the client's name, the community name, and the dimensions right, the rest doesn't really matter all that much, right?

Come on. We're talking about an association of professionals hiring a professional whose expertise is financial transactions and taxes. We should be holding that professional to the same high standards in the professional work he or she does for us as we demand of ourselves and our colleagues in the practice of our profession.

Questions as to the correctness and completeness of the CLSA's tax filings and financial reports are valid concerns to raise and deserve complete and straight answers.

However, some are going overboard here where AMS is concerned.

Do your clients get bent out of shape when they learn that you have other clients? OK, some probably do, but just don't express it quite that way. Even if some of your clients seem to have the attitude that you should clear the decks and jump to their every request as if they were your only client, I doubt that most of you do that. Most surveyors (and other professionals I've known) take the attitude toward a client that thinks they should be able to monopolize your time that "If that client wants to pay me [whatever it takes to run your firm plus a healthy profit margin], then I'll gladly make myself and my staff available to him 100% of the time."

Getting upset that AMS has other clients is not a valid concern, nor does it make any sense.

Whether or not the AMS office building doubles as Dorothy's residence doesn't matter either. Where are we going to end up with this line of attack? (yes, it's gone beyond mere questions and into attack mode) Are we going to start challenging the number of pens AMS orders in a year? Are you going to cry foul if you learn that they might use some leftover pens from the little notebook & pen sets given to conference attendees as swag?

Personally, I don't give a darn what the particulars of their expenses are or what their profit margin is. What I would be concerned with is whether the service provided is of a level and quality that it represents a good value to the CLSA as compared to the service we would get from similar service firms.

I haven't shopped around for a consultant company that specializes in the management of professional and trade associations, so I have no idea.

What I do know about AMS is that any time I have a question, a concern, or need some information, Dorothy and her staff have always - not just usually, or even most of the time - but always have been prompt, friendly, and professional. If they can do that with the staff working out of a spare bedroom or a converted garage, who cares? Up until this particular discussion, I would have had no idea what type of building they worked out of.

Although I have been very critical of the proposed bylaw changes, and am paying attention to the questions and answers regarding the financials and taxes (thanks for looking into it Mark), I am becoming increasingly irritated at the direction this thread is going.

Insisting on straight and complete answers to valid financial questions is fine. As to the minutia of AMS's operations and business expenses, I wouldn't fault them at all if they took the same attitude that and most of you would if a client of ours demanded that I provide them a report of my business operating expenses - "I'm providing you with professional services. I have provided you an estimate to complete those services and have even itemized it according to each service offered. I have provided you a copy of our standard rates should extra services be required. I will not provide you with an itemization of my company expenses nor justify my rates to you because, quite frankly, it's none of your business. If you believe that you can be provided the same services by someone with the same level of expertise for less, you are welcome to solicit estimates from other surveyors."

I know and trust many of the current and/or past officers of CLSA. Aaron has always struck me as a man with integrity. From having worked with Tom on the Leg Comm several years back, I know him to be meticulous and thorough. Therefore I expect that there are valid concerns by Tom and some others who have presented them, and I am sure that the officers like Aaron, believe that they have answered those concerns. Each would do well to review the concerns presented as compared to the answers provided.

Until the paries of each side of the discussion affords respect to those on the other side, this thing is only going to drive a wedge through the membership.

I know from reviewing the proposed bylaws that I don't like the direction the leadership structure is trying to go. I know from experience that some of the parties demanding answers will take the answers given to them, toss them aside and continue to holler that no one has provided any answers. Some in leadership are now treating pretty much anyone who voices concerns with the same contempt that they've developed for a few individuals they have become frustrated with.

Each of those reactions to the other side is disrespectful and rather than encouraging coming to some manner of agreement, promotes and increases the fissures that can cause an association to crumble.


"And that's all I got to say about tha-at."

[TTaylor]

Thank you, Evan for your level headed post.

For the record, I do not recall posting any questions related to the financial relationship between CLSA and AMS or anything related to tax filings.

As a matter of fact, I do believe that Dorothy (AMS) is not cheating the organization out of monies or anything of the kind. I also do not think that there are nefarious things going on behind the scenes related to taxes. I also believe that there are many, many things that they do very well on our behalf.

My comments recently have been focused on the proposed by-laws revisions, the attempt to expulse Dave Wooley, and my (probably unfortunate) reactions to an anonymous troll and a former President showing smug disrespect to a member of the Association.

Do I think this Association could be improved? You betcha ya.

How?
1.) I think that clarifying the roles of the Directors is a good idea. Just like I think reviewing/clarifying the roles of the Committee Chairs and Liaisons, the Ex Comm, and our management company is needed and in order. However, I do not think the current by-law revisions is good for the Association or its members.
2.) I think that the Association should have clear contracts with all of its contractors with language I stated in a previous post. There is no hidden agenda in my opinion on this subject. As a matter of fact, I think the Association and its contractors will all benefit from having good contracts in place.
3.) I think the Association should have a "Disaster Preparedness Plan" in place to address various contingencies. First, the plan should address the Associations resources and how to access them by the President and President Elect in case of a dramatic change. This includes monies, equipment, and historical data. Second, The plan should have language on procedures and processes for the replacement of contractors etc.

If I have forgotten a post I made related to finances and/or taxes please excuse me.

[bryanmundia]

Okay Brian first thing lose the attitude! Yes I am telling you that this is a place of business, I have actually visited the Central Office, not just viewed it via Google Earth. You are correct CLSA is not the only client of AMS, but I believe it is the largest client.
And you feel these are serious issues take them to your Chapter have them put together a list and send to the BOD to be placed on the next meeting’s agenda.

BTW anyone can contact the Central Office and ask for information the phone number is (707) 578-6016. Also there is a reason I post my phone number, free feel to call!

Armand Marois
PLS 5941
(760) 931-8700 ext 240
amarois@bhaincsd.com

First off, no attitude, just get a little heated when I feel like someone is not willing to look at both sides of the coin.

As for my issues and questions, why even bother bringing them up, if they don't fall in line with the loyalties and beliefs of the BOD I have learned that I will be tarred and feathered and then stoned to death (i.e. place upon a chopping block to be kicked out of CLSA).

As for the central office, do we know if the current zoning of the property, which is R-3-18-H, allows for such a business to be run from a residence? When I do look at the property in google earth or any other street view, I see absolutely no signage for the property, not an single thing showing that it is AMS's office nor the central office of CLSA nor any other association.

I also find it odd that the building which houses the central office is held by Dorothy and her husband as individuals and not as an asset of AMS itself. Is AMS a corporation or is it a sole proprietorship? I think it would be advantageous to protect the assets of CLSA to have their central office listed as an asset of the company which they have hired to represent them, not in the name of the owners of said company.

Instead of deflecting I suggest you answer my questions this time. Telling me to watch my attitude is like trying to take a bone out of the mouth of a starving dog, unless you want to get bit, I wouldn't try it. I truly respect what you have done for CLSA and the profession itself.

Also, out of respect, please try to spell my name right next time. It is both in my user name and my signature line, there is now reason for you to be spelling in wrong. Ball is in your court Armand, look forward to the response.

[7702]

This isn't helping anybody. I realize that emotions are running high, but if this unrest is truly about full financial disclosure from the organization, then there has to be a better way to get the desired information without personal attacks and airing so much dirty laundry.

This current trend is a lose-lose proposition for CLSA and the profession. I have played no small role myself. For conducting myself in a less than professional fashion, I humbly and sincerely apologize and will strive to represent myself and my profession in a better light in the future. As far as diligently performing a review of the financial disclosure forms, well, you all certainly got your money's worth in that regard.

We have confirmed, it's safe to say, by use of a rather unconventional and controversial approach, that there are some legitimate financial concerns, especially regarding the financial disclosure part of the operation. I think that lends a little more credibility to those that have been expressing concerns that may have been falling on deaf ears in the past. Mr. Marois has already conceded (on my thread just prior to my deleting it) that CLSA needs a new accountant and that, in itself, is encouraging.

Lets keep moving forward, but hopefully as a united front, to help build a bigger and better organization that we all rely on so heavily.

Thank you.

[dmi]

When you act like prey dogs will chase...

[DWoolley]

Ok, Aaron,

My corrected sentence of a several paragraph post (with reference material) should have read:

"The Orange County Directors rejected this draft and asked that a real contract with basic material (required) terms such as the price for services be included in the next draft. No draft was ever returned it has been almost a year since we asked for a [remove-new draft] contract. "

That is November 2013 to November 2014 (1 year), presuming we'll see something at the next Board of Directors meeting. Further, presuming I will still be the President and Director for the Orange County Chapter.

Apparently, Ian Wilson has no responsibility in making himself look bad by saying things that are simply not true? Or was it your continued expectation that I, together with my fellow Orange County Directors, should go along to get along - truth be damned?

I believed then, as I do now, that it is not an unreasonable expectation, when making a $175,000 annual commitment on behalf of the dues paying members, to understand and document the duties, material terms, etc. within a contract, notwithstanding the legal requirements. As for me requesting "rent, maintenance, repairs etc.", this is not exactly true. I had an expectation of the cost and duties breakdown. Don't take my word for it, look at the document that I attached in my previous posts. Those are the contract comments you received from me in February. The one thing not listed that I believe we need, now that you bring it up, is a performance matrix. Additionally, as is common in our industry, especially for those that contract with the state, it is not unreasonable to expect to see an overhead determination.

You readily demonstrate and I understand that you have a primary allegiance to AMS. My fellow Orange County Directors and I, on the other hand, believe our responsibility is to our Chapter and a broader responsibility to the membership - not loyalty to the Executive Committee, the Past Presidents Committee or the AMS clique. We speak out against the proposed bylaws, the continued censorship of the forum, poorly constructed contracts, and more importantly, no contracts at all for professional services, inaccurate tax returns, questionable expenses and expenditures without formal authorization.

We do not do this "to twist information" with the broader objective of making "CLSA look really bad" as you have stated. We are not children trying to cause trouble (as insinuated by CLSA attorney Mr. Alcorn during a meeting to which I was denied entry). We are trying to fulfill our fiduciary duties and we will not be threatened into negating those duties. Remember, I am posting documents to reinforce my statements. Where are my opponents documents dispelling my facts? One instance comes to mind that relates to the non-existent AMS/Calegari contract. There was much talk by those loyal to AMS that AMS does not charge us rent (making a comparison to a doctor or lawyer not charging their clients rent). AMS is not hired to do a one-time specific discrete task for CLSA as a lawyer or doctor would do for a client. In the doctor or lawyers case, hourly rates reflect a portion of overhead built into the fee. In the case of AMS, they are warehousing our records, equipment and manage CLSA so one would expect to be charged rent. The question remains as to the basis and the cost for warehousing records. The draft contract (despite missing most material terms) specifically lists rent as a charge to CLSA read the draft contract that you recommended the Directors accept- I have provided an attachment in my previous post.

As for "making CLSA look bad" , we are every bit as much "CLSA" as anyone or any Chapter. In fact, I believe Orange County is the biggest Chapter in the state, including the recent migration of several past Presidents from adjoining Chapters to the Orange County Chapter. Our Directors and Executive Committee often meet as many as three times a month and additionally, we socialize together with our families. I believe we may be the most cohesive and organized group in the state (no disrespect intended towards any other organized Chapters). Orange County prides itself on being a practice based Chapter. Everyone knows our focus. We have the best newsletter in the state- which, again, is focused on practice based land surveying issues. Interested readers are encouraged to see this year's editions on our website. We do this in spite of the distractions put forth in the efforts to expel me.

No, Mr. Smith, we will not go along to get along-your wild-eyed exclamation filled rant be damned. Our allegiance is to the Orange County Chapter and the members that put their faith us. We will not approve a bad contract based on your impassioned speech as to the goodness of AMS to the Board of Directors with the Aaron Smith "recommend approval" stamp. Your narcissism aside, this was not to make you look bad. The Orange County Directors serve a broader allegiance.

I do not lament the time required to address your nonsense. I volunteered for the job-which requires that I accept the good with the bad. I suppose I have as many excuses as the next guy as to why I couldn't do the job I volunteered to do, even facing expulsion, but I will work to the end on practice based issues that are important to our Chapter- rather than wring my hands and shake my fist towards those that have wronged me. It's not about me. I have heard the whining excuse that I keep all of CLSA from focusing on land surveying issues. Nuts! to you and your ilk, your expulsion clique outnumber me 5 to 1 and we still remain focused on land surveying issues-read the correspondence, newsletters, attend one of our meetings, etc. Who's wasting who's time Mr. Smith? No hard feelings, I volunteered for the job. I gladly accept all that goes with it-but do not expect me to rubber stamp anything- especially, just because you say so or it is one of your pals.

DWoolley

P.S. Mr. Marois Regarding your 9/8/14 3:58 p.m. post regarding the AMS contract and your statement that the Directors "heard all of the concerns, issues and reviewed the contract, a motion was made, seconded and approved to accept the contract". Certainly not to my knowledge. If I am wrong, show me the executed contract and the motion to have it approved.

[bryanmundia]

As far as praising AMS&.. YOU BETCHA YA! Seeing what AMS has done for us, I praise AMS and especially the Officers. I personally want to thank Rolland, Jay, Roger, Ian, Mike, Jeff, Dorothy, Crissy, Steve and Annette&.. SO APPRECIATIVE OF YOUR EFFORTS!

Mr. Smith,

What exactly has AMS done for us over the past 30 years of service that would constitute such high praise? I apologize for my ignorance but I am "newer" to the organization.

Also, to turn the tables, how would you feel about an organization asking you to provide your statements from this forum on the witness stand? I find it hard to take any of your comments with more than a grain of salt, especially when we have other active forum users who back up what they say with actual documentation, not just a finger point and scowl look.

[marois]

Mr. Woolley--My apologies you are correct the contract has not been approved by the BOD, I did not attend the last meeting and was making an assumption. Please don't sue me.

Armand Marois

[marois]

Bryan--Sorry for misspelling your name, it was not my intention to offend your sensitivity.

Armand Marois

[btaylor]

Bryan should relax on that. For some reason, people will always insist on missing the Y. I think the country is Y-phobic.

The "Y" union needs to file a class action lawsuit. It is a scourge on one of the letters of our great alphabet.