California Surveyors Forums

Really? Like we don't already have enough fuel to laugh this all the way back to the ink factory.

"The Wooley Amendments"? Are you kidding me? Do tell, and please leave no detail left unspoken.

The Sasquatch Amendments! The Boogieman Amendments! Really CLSA? I could invent a better association myself, with a few Facebook friends. CLSA is done. It's public persona is dead, non-existent, fried, and subject to the whims of anybody who wants to see it go by-by.

Nobody today cares about your rules. They get bulldozed. All due respect Mr. Pallamary for your forthright clarity. Truth is, nobody has time to care for that nowadays. So your lame CLSA crap is done for, before it began. Next!

When you wake up, pull the banana peels from your eyes, emerge from the garbage can, take a mental inventory of what is going on, the answer is simple. A professional cannot trust anybody, mother included.

Don't talk to me about rules. Talk to me about action.

Hey Evan,

Can you email me, or call me when you have a moment?

My phone number is in my signature below, or my email is here...

pls7809 (at) gmail (dot) com

Thanks,

mpallamary wrote:Howdy everyone,

Im not a lawyer but it is pretty obvious what is going on here and what is most obvious is someone is getting bad unsophisticated advice.

This sudden urge to amend the bylaws ......

In order for the October 4 vote to be taken, the by-laws have to be redrafted ....... and they need to be done immediately as in right now!

Tactics like this are very common in the world of politics and that is something I know a bit about and it is things like this make you want to take a shower.

It is not my intention to open up a back and forth debate here. I do need to point out some of your assertions are incorrect. For your information, your previous home chapter (San Diego) discussed these proposed changes and provided written feedback to the Board of Directors back in early 2013. These proposed changes were discussed at several of our local chapter meetings. Perhaps you missed those meetings.

Here is the timeline of the proposed changes to the by-laws.

April 2012 the Policy and Procedure Committee was formed. They were directed to revise bylaws to address confusion on the issue of fiduciary duty and bring the bylaws into conformance with the California Corporations Code (Nonprofit Corporation Law).

June 2012 the Policy and Procedure Committee met for two days and reviewed the bylaws. They used the Corporations Code, Law of Association, and Legal Guide for Association Board Members as resources.

November 2012 the Executive Committee and the attorney completed the review of the bylaw proposals.

January 2013 the agenda was emailed to all Board members, Chapter Officers and Past Presidents. The agenda included the proposed bylaws that would be reviewed at the February 2013 Board meeting. Chapters reviewed the bylaws and provided feedback with written comments, questions and suggestions being submitted to the Board of Directors.

February 2013 the Board of Directors reviewed the bylaws through section 5.04. Some items were sent back to the Policy and Procedure Committee for further review and research.

April 2013 the agenda was emailed to all Board members, Chapter Officers and Past Presidents. This provided further opportunity for Chapters to review the proposed bylaws with their membership.

April 2013 the Board of Directors further reviewed and modified the proposed bylaws.

July 2013 the agenda was emailed to all Board members, Chapter Officers and Past Presidents. This provided further opportunity for Chapters to review the proposed bylaws with their membership.

July 2013 the Board of Directors postponed further review of bylaws until the November 2013 meeting.

October 2013 the agenda was emailed to all Board members, Chapter Officers and Past Presidents. This provided further opportunity for Chapters to review the proposed bylaws with their membership.

November 2013 the Board approved the remaining bylaws and sent those items referred to committee back to the Policy and Procedure Committee.

February 2014 the Directors were asked to bring the bylaws back to their local membership discuss, and send all comments to Jay Seymour by February 24th. Several emails were received by the membership.

March 2014 the Policy & Procedure Committee met. Bylaws were reviewed and edited based on feedback received.

March 2014 the agenda was emailed to all Board members, Chapter Officers and Past Presidents. This provided further opportunity for Chapters to review the proposed bylaws with their membership.

April 2014 the Board of Directors approved the bylaws to be sent to the voting members (corporate or life members) for final vote.

Excellent!

To quote Bertrand Russell:

To return to the physiologist observing another man's brain: what the physiologist sees is by no means identical with what happens in the brain he is observing, but is a somewhat remote effect. From what he sees, therefore, he cannot judge whether what is happening in the brain he is observing is, or is not, the sort of event that he would call "mental". When he says that certain physical events in the brain are accompanied by mental events, he is thinking of physical events as if they were what he sees. He does not see a mental event in the brain he is observing, and therefore, supposes that there is in that brain a physical process that he can observe and a mental process which he cannot. This is a complete mistake. In the strict sense, he cannot observe anything in the other brain, but only the percepts which he himself has when he is suitably related to that brain (eye to microscope, etc.). We first identify physical processes with our percepts, and then, since our percepts are not other people's thoughts, we argue that the physical processes in their brains are something quite different from their thoughts. In fact, everything that we can directly observe of the physical world happens inside our heads, and consists of "mental" events in at least one sense of the word "mental". It also consists of events which form part of the physical world. The development of this point of view will lead us to the conclusion that the distinction between mind and matter is illusory. The stuff of the world may be called physical or mental or both or neither, as we please; in fact, the words serve no purpose. There is only one definition of the words that is unobjectionable: "physical" is what is dealt with by physics, and "mental" is what is dealt with by psychology. When, accordingly, I speak of "physical" space, I mean the space that occurs in physics.

It is extraordinarily difficult to divest ourselves of the belief that the physical world is the world we perceive by sight and touch; even if, in our philosophic moments, we are aware that this is an error, we nevertheless fall into it again as soon as we are off our guard. The notion that what we see is "out there" in physical space is one which cannot survive while we are grasping the difference between what physics supposes to be really happening, and what our senses show us as happening; but it is sure to return and plague us when we begin to forget the argument. Only long reflection can make a radically new point of view familiar and easy.

The discussion of the By Laws revisions is good and probably healthy for CLSA because it gets us all thinking about the status of the membership down to the individual member. The biggest change, IMO, is Section 2 devoted to suspension/expulsion of a member and Section 4 that defines how individual chapters (i.e. members) are represented at the State level.

Denying a dues paying member his/her privileges of membership is a serious action that would presumably be based on equally serious derogatory actions by the member. The revised language requires a 60% approval vote of the board members present to suspend/expel a member. It’s difficult to believe the BOD at large would vote to suspend/expel a member unless there was sufficient reason to do so.

The Representative vs Director status of the BOD members has been discussed at length for some time. Apparently the organizational structure of CLSA provides for Directors. In the case of our BOD the majority of the Directors act as Representatives. Although the Director has the right and ability to vote solely on his/her personal opinions and wishes, few seldom do. By and large the directors vote the wishes of the individual chapters they represent. The directors are also not allowed to report on how he/she voted. Most “directorsâ€￾ act as representatives in this case as well and report to their chapters their voting record. The bottom line, the chapters send Directors to the BOD to act as their Representatives.

The bigger issue is the idea that the Directors are prohibited from reporting to their chapters the details of discussions and decisions of the BOD. Nor is a Director allowed to publicly disagree with a BOD decision. However, it is permissible for a member at large to publicly disagree. I would offer there are few discussions and decisions at the quarterly BOD meetings that can’t be openly reported to the chapter membership. The BOD meetings are open to all who wish to attend. The meeting minutes, committee reports, discussions and decisions are available to all present, including non CLSA members. It’s unreasonable to require a member at large to have to attend a BOD meeting to get the information a Director isn’t allowed to report.

SUSPEND THE VOTE.

I believe Mr. Butcher was pointing out that the proposed revisions to the Bylaws have been progressing along for a couple of years, in response to Mr. Pallamary’s assertion that this is being done in a haphazard and rapid pace.
And regarding the vote, once all the ballots have been received, a teller committee will be form to tally the votes and report the results at the November 4th Board of Directors’ meeting and depending on the outcome the revised Bylaws may or not be adopted.
Concerning the October 4th meeting, this meeting is being held in accordance with the current Bylaws, which were last adopted in October 2008. Having attended a couple of meetings this year as an alternate, all I can say is the reason(s) for the meeting is more than a director asking questions.

Armand Marois

SUSPEND THE VOTE.

As a past Chapter Rep. I am aware that these By-Law changes started a couple years ago, and it is unfortunate that they have taken so darn long to process. The amount of revisions look as if these are a brand new set of By-Laws under review. In my opinion we should never have waited so long to get such a complex package to a vote. With the number of revisions proposed, since the last By-Law changes in 2008 (I think I read), has CLSA been operating so poorly that all of these are needed? I have to ask myself if the By-Laws were reviewed and revised (if needed) more frequently, would the important issues by reviewed in a different perspective?

One example of minor revisions that should have been previously addressed would be the change from "Chapter Representative" to "Director". This happened a couple years ago, and the Directors made it clear at local meetings they were no longer "Chapter Representatives", but the By-Laws were not revised to officially call them "Directors". Just an example from my perspective on the process as a whole, and this housecleaning item adds to the revisions now being addressed.

Under the current situation that has evolved around one situation, I do not feel it is good timing to attempt to push all of the revisions through, before a special meeting to be held in October. If the By-Law Committee and Chapter Reps./Directors did their voluntary duties in a timely manner, the By-Law changes may have already been in place, with or without the drastic changes being proposed at this time.

One issue being discussed is the power being given to just a few, as I read it. We need more to be involved in any serious decisions, rather than just a few.
I state this because I observed personally at the BoD Meeting where a Chapter Rep. voted differently than how their chapter directed them to vote. This was while I was a Chapter Rep., but was attending two different chapters. So now we have Directors which can vote how they feel, and not in the direction given to them by their chapter. As the chapter elects and trusts you will listen to the voice, there is no assurance the chapters voice is heard at the BoD Meeting. From that time on, I had another perspective on the whole process, knowing the chapter was not represented well. I have never discussed this prior, because I did not want to open up a new can of worms, but I believe it is all relative to the power given to just a few.
Yes this incident was a couple years ago, but it happened.

I truly respect the time all volunteers take to help run this organization, but I also see the procrastination that has taken place attempting to get something accomplished through the same organization and have to question the validity of ALL of these revisions, just to satisfy a few. I will be voting for some issues, and rejecting some issues at hand.

SUSPEND THE VOTE

There is no mechanism to “suspend the voteâ€￾. It is not going to happen.

I suggest being as informed as you can be and VOTE.

Oxnard Kurt, thanks for your comments. Under the way the association operates, the existing rules and procedures are honored only if it is convenient or politically expedient. There are so many rules and laws that are abused, anything is possible. If we are forced to vote under these circumstances, everyone should vote no across the board.

“It is the people who control the Government, not the Government the
people.â€￾
― Winston Churchill

Vote no!!!

Thank you Evan for taking the time to dissect the ballot measures.

Appears to be some sort of power grab going on and that's not how a org like CLSA is to be run.

Since there seems to be no way to delay or suspend the vote then the only alternative is to vote no on all.

USA = government of the people, by the people, for the people

Similarly, CLSA (should) = association of land surveyors, by land surveyors, for land surveyors

After a long hiatus from CLSA membership, I rejoined and began attending local chapter meetings again about three years ago.

Can someone tell me when this change from Chapter Representative to Director happened? As I understand it, there is now an expected allegiance, devotion and loyalty to the Association that trumps truly representing the chapter and its regular members. I know that the current, proposed bylaw amendments formally change "Chapter Representative" to "Director", but when did the shift in thinking happen? And why?

I never received a ballot, probably due to a change in address. How do I get one? The information here is compelling.

I threw up on my ballot. Is there any way I can get a new one to send in? Or should I just dry my current one out in the sun and hope for good luck?

rpost wrote:I never received a ballot, probably due to a change in address. How do I get one? The information here is compelling.

Ask Crissy at the home office to send you a ballot package through first class mail. There is a special envelope/signature protocol so you'll need that (i.e. emailing a pdf won't be adequate).

CLSA
Tel.: (707) 578-6016 – Fax: (707) 578-4406
E-mail: clsa@californiasurveyors.org