California Surveyors Forums

bruce hall wrote:"To remain silent, when they should protest, makes cowards of men".

Don't know who said it, but it sure sounds good.

Ella Wheeler Wilcox:
"To sin by silence, when we should protest,
Makes cowards out of men."

I read a good quote also. This was from a social scientist as I recall.

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In our current media climate, the words troll and trolling appear to pop up most regularly when describing destructive behaviours or states (copyright trolls, patent trolls, cyberbullying trolls). When encountering my first net troll, I didn’t immediately frame them as evil – to me, they were simply an attention-seeking individual with obvious, and potentially serious, issues. At the time, however, I wasn’t so rational about the entire experience: I reacted instead with shock and disgust.

In relation to present-day definitions of trolling, my encounter with T-Roll may seem tame with minimal indications of what nowadays defines online trolling. The chief indicator of current trolls is their ability to provoke unsuspecting users through “bait” posts or actions, all designed with the specific intention of garnering a reaction. Vicious goading and incitement through personal attacks is indicative of a negative troll. These types of trolls engage in disseminating malicious material purely for the sake of exposure, attention, or some other unspecified – but still detrimental – motivation.

William Magee wrote:

DWoolley wrote:...

We can ignore him, his lies and his misdirection. CLSA membership is up year over year...

DWoolley

Total CLSA membership as of July 1 of each of the following years:

2013: 2,149
2014: 2,077
2015: 2,083
2016: 1,682
2017: 1,667

Note that these numbers are taken directly from the Board of Director's agendas and are available for any member to review.

DWoolley wrote:

...... we are operating at a $30k surplus budget after the last BoD meeting....

DWoolley

Note that the $30k surplus budget is the projected budget for next year. i.e. wishful and barring any further drops in membership, conference negative income or unanticipated expenses such as legal defense fees.

Saved.

Good post Mike Pallamary.

DWoolley

Good comments about crying as the "victim."

http://www.makeuseof.com/tag/5-effectiv ... et-trolls/

Interestingly in that I point out that CLSA has been losing membership and money. Although true as proved above, instead I am called a liar and more.

This is not about me, but is a front and center question as to patterns of behavior and tactics of leadership. Harassment and intimidation should not be tools of control of those who desire to lead at CLSA's chapters and at the elected State Association level.

I challenge all to really look and question who their leaders are and how they have been conducting themselves.
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William Magee wrote:Interestingly in that I point out that CLSA has been losing membership and money. Although true as proved above, instead I am called a liar and more.

This is not about me, but is a front and center question as to patterns of behavior and tactics of leadership. Harassment and intimidation should not be tools of control of those who desire to lead at CLSA's chapters and at the elected State Association level.

I challenge all to really look and question who their leaders are and how they have been conducting themselves.
.

And now, the victim (again).

DWoolley

William Magee:

It is a shame you went to such great lengths to “prove” you were right and more importantly, I was wrong. I somewhat anticipated you would do so. Arrogantly and repeatedly, it has never occurred to you that I might actually know something you do not – for instance, publishing a lead into a story and then, providing a link to the original article avoided copyright liability.

In your misguided fervor it never occur to you - when I said that year over year membership increased - I had a line on the information. Or did you think I would simply say something which I didn’t actually know to be true (taking one from your playbook)? Rhetorical question Magee, please do not go on another maniacal search for “proof” – I take little pleasure in pointing out your ill-intended deficiencies. Your bitterness is palatable.

Lastly and obviously, it never occurred to you that as the Membership Chairman for the largest chapter in the state I may have more information than presented in an agenda that was published one month before the membership actually closed.

I give to you, the corrected figures:

2016: 1,682
2017: 1,732 (not 1,667)

The numbers in the July agenda for the current year will always be short due to the meeting being calendared before the end of membership enrollment.

I would not classify this particular canard as a lie, simply uninformed. I was going to let you get away with it until you came back for seconds to crow of your “proof”.

As for CLSA, I believe the organization is strong and getting stronger. Albeit, we will have very little data to compare to other than 2016 forward. Any numbers, whether it is money, taxes or membership, are highly suspect prior to CAMS doing the accounting. The fact we did not “challenge our leadership”, as you have suggested, in those especially dark years of 2004-2014, is unfortunate. As I recall it, when Orange County did challenge the "leadership" they spewed lies and tried to remove a member. We can remain hopeful the Attorney General will offer some level of satisfaction for the misdeeds during those years.

DWoolley

DWoolley wrote:
It is a shame you went to such great lengths to “prove” you were right and more importantly, I was wrong. I somewhat anticipated you would do so. Arrogantly and repeatedly, it has never occurred to you that I might actually know something you do not – for instance, publishing a lead into a story and then, providing a link to the original article avoided copyright liability.

The stories on the SF bldg foundation problems and the quarry had one printed in full and the other printed in almost entirety. This would not qualify as only "publishing a lead" as you claim. Providing a link to the origin is little more than providing credit after printing the article in full. Providing credit is not equivilent to printing with permission as copyright dictates. Also, the cover picture does not provide notice of being reprinted with permission which provides the presumption that it was not even though it is also protected by copyright.

DWoolley wrote:William Magee:

As to membership numbers I am glad to see there has been an increase in 2017 numbers from those reported in July. Encouraging but still concerning that they are still substantially down from the 2013 and 2014 numbers. To lose several hundred members is a substantial budget hit. I have no reason to believe that the substantial drop is based on suspect numbers. That is solely your claim.

DWoolley wrote: I would not classify this particular canard as a lie, simply uninformed.
DWoolley

You did falsely classify it as a lie in your earlier post.

Mr. Magee,

As I am curious about the notion of criminal acts and the potential implications of charges of plagiarism, as well as a fundamental inquiry into one's professed morality, I did some research on plagiarism and, as it is a civil crime, no one has ever gone to jail for it. At best, it can result in a cash payment.

Conversely, and for the convenient purpose of comparing a civil matter to a criminal act, I came across an interesting article about a woman who embezzled $300,000 from a tool company. She was sentenced to spend from 3 to 10 years in prison. The article can be found here:

http://www.mlive.com/news/muskegon/inde ... _time.html

“Do not be too moral. You may cheat yourself out of much life so. Aim above morality. Be not simply good, be good for something.”
― Henry David Thoreau

The challenge is CLSA has approximately a 10-15% attrition rate due to retirees that no longer participate and the Grim Reaper routinely filling his gunnysack. The fraternal organizations i.e. Elks, Moose, Eagles etc. - even Ralph and Norton's beloved Raccoon Lodge - has had to adjust to cultural changes in the communities that has resulted in membership loss. This is a trend spanning back several decades. CLSA is no different.

As a group, the Orange County Chapter leadership believes CLSA must change with the times. The association, when viewed as a whole, is not backfilling membership with the next generation of newly licensed surveyors. To accommodate the new generation OC does not expect the members to attend every meeting or even, some meetings. Attending meetings is not something the younger folks want to do. The value of the membership rests in the representation , the OC newsletter and being informed about the professional community. From my perspective, I do not foresee these younger folks, the millennial generation, following the same path I followed. However, I have found the younger generation has concerns about the future of the profession. I see the most interest in license discipline and enforcement issues among the mid 8000s to current.

The Orange County Chapter, a Practice Based Chapter, certainly appreciates their membership, newsletter readership and their contributions to the chapter's success - we also welcome the honest critics.

The next OC newsletter has been through editing and will be published tomorrow - or so I have been told.

DWoolley

I appreciate the industry relevant articles like the Canadian gravel and the SF skyscraper (which I've been loosely following).

One of the greatest benefits of the newsletter is that the pages are filled with substantive articles and important stories as opposed to page after page of people handing each other plaques and awards and other items of recognition to their predecessors, a costly endeavor to say the least. There is meat on this bone.

It's been bally-hooed, it's been assailed. With tenacious debate has come continued great readership [over 400 downloads monthly on average, not counting the passing around we can't track].

Brace yourself, the latest edition of the OC Chapter Newsletter is here! http://oc-surveyors.org/newsletter/


Download your copy of the current one on our newsletter page with the CURRENT link and browse past copies to catch up with what you’ve missed by YEAR.

Check us out on Social Media:
https://www.facebook.com/OC.CLSA
https://twitter.com/occlsa
https://www.periscope.tv/OCCLSA

Excellent! Great job! Valuable information. As always, more information in one newsletter than can be found in any other publication!

Many thanks!

Thanks for a very informative newsletter. The story that jumped out most to me was that from the Orange County Register titled Too Many Earning a License When they Could Be Earning a Living.

That sentiment is one that is popping up all over the country. While I agree that too many vocations are over-regulated, I do not believe that deregulating surveying would serve the public well in any regard. There are a good many unlicensed people working in the surveying profession as unlicensed technicians and/or as para-professionals on their way to attaining a license to practice who are making a very good living.

The biggest danger which might contribute to the deregulation of surveying is, IMO, the low bar for entry set by the LS exam, and the fact that in this State, there is very little which adequately describes appropriate standards of care. As a result, there are many in some areas of practice who do not even understand what it is they are supposed to be doing - that is, the purpose of the service provided. Equally disconcerting, or possibly of even greater concern is that this lack of readily identifiable standards has and continues to cause inconsistent enforcement of "standards of practice" by BPELSG.

This is an issue that CLSA will need to keep close tabs on and be ready to get in front of very quickly if necessary. I suggest bringing this story to the attention of the Cal Surveyor Editor for inclusion in the next upcoming issue.

Relating that to another informational story in the November issue (What BPELSG Bases Their Regulations On), if you have not had occasion to attend a civil case or an OAH case regarding professional negligence, incompetence, or other violation(s), I highly recommend finding the time to do so. It is educational to see how the process works. Sometimes it's interesting, other times it's incredibly frustrating.

For those who have been practicing for a good while, have studied the legal guidance pertaining to the surveyor's duty, and have confidence that their own practice comports with what the courts have said, you could be in for a surprise by the level of knowledge that passes for expert by BPELSG standards. Some are very knowledgeable, others not so much, and a few are so far off base that you might consider BPELSG to have been negligent by putting the licensee forward as an expert. As I said, not very consistent.