Yosemite Forest Surveying

7702 · Post by **7702** » Mon Apr 20, 2009 1:02 pm

Where are all of the "soon to be licensed" folks hiding? I know some of them could survey circles around me.

Also, we could benefit by having some skilled "office support" as well, for processing data, adjusting networks, etc.

Anybody out there have a mobile office?

Who's going to design the "I survived Yosemite 2009" teeshirts and hats? [:=)

Ric7308 · Post by **Ric7308** » Mon Apr 20, 2009 1:22 pm

Evan, yes the orange is for the individuals that commented regarding possible involvement. If you or anyone else can commit to certain dates, that would be helpful.

And yes I agree with Mark, this doesn't have to be limited to licensed surveyors. And I also agree, I won't be the fastest.

Landon, I will put you down for those dates and I'm guessing you won't smell any worse than the rest of us.

Ric

Sunburned_Surveyor · Post by **Sunburned_Surveyor** » Mon Apr 20, 2009 2:57 pm

I have a laptop that I can bring down with Trimble Business Center and a CAD program if we need it for post-processing data. I don't work in the field much anymore, so you can call me an office hand.

If others are going down on my selected weekend we can talk about a carpool or sharing a camp site. Will we need to stay overnight in Yosemite? I like to avoid crowds, so I might look for a campsite that is outside the park, maybe on national forest land.

Landon

Berk Blake, PLS CA · Post by **Berk Blake, PLS CA** » Mon Apr 20, 2009 4:52 pm

I think we ought to decide how this is going to go down before we arrive on site. I see control surveying listed a few times and wonder what that means.

I personally think that Jim owes us a POB and a back sight for whatever bearing he would like his grid to be on and the elevation that he wants the POB to have.

I believe that a crew should run that line the 500 meters setting the 20 meter points along the way. At the same time, another crew could turn 90Â° from the POB and push it to the end of the 500 meters with the 20 meter points established along the way. That would leave two base legs to run and once they are done the other crews could fill in the grids and have something to hang their hat on when they reach the end of their 500 meter lines.. Closure for this procedure might not be exciting, but it is probably a good deal faster than running a control traverse, adjusting it then finding out that the radial spray won't work. Remember that we aren't allowed to do any clearing or brushing. Jim needs to speak to expected accuracies, horizontal and vertical.

I will bring a Allegro data collector with Carlson CE on it. I will use it to run the grid and the elevations simultaneously. That leaves me with a data transfer to some computer. Carlson can send an ASCII file, i.e., POINT #, Northing, Easting, Elevation, Description, using a serial port for the download. A system that beats hand work and transfers quickly. The drafting of the grid info could be done by Jim's crew.

For those that are bringing data collectors, it would be nice if someone pre-calc'd the grid, using a local coordinate system, in meters, at the Southwest corner of the grid, then everyone with a data collector, could start on the same page and plug the elevation of the grid that they are running into this file for their work. GPS after the grid is in, would allow Jim to put the whole on UTM, if he wants.

Just my thoughts

Ric7308 · Post by **Ric7308** » Mon Apr 20, 2009 7:32 pm

I think everyone here has some great ideas and obviously why Jim and the project needs land surveyors involved.

It appears that the consensus is to establish the exterior lines (or at least two baselines) initially so independent crews can can coordinate consistently throughout the interior with checks.

And eventually tie the grid into real world...because we can and it may prove helpful in the future. Once he is able to and given his local presence, maybe RAM can recon those two GPS points he mentioned and give us feedback to possible static collection locations.

I am sure that Jim will coordinate with us eventually and respond to tolerance requirements, etc. that may answer some of the inquiries regarding what level of adjustments we will really need.

Just talked with another land surveyor that suggested a variation of the grid layout process that Berk, Mark and others have suggested with the addition of coordinated flagging colors so everyone at a glance would know where they were while performing the infill.

Since the methodology suggestions appear to be of the same mind at this early date, I for one would like to see if the schedule and number of volunteers can be firmed up as a priority. Mainly as some have mentioned, once we have the team established and know "who" and "when", everyone here has already demonstrated how well "what" and "how" can be achieved.

In an earlier post, Jim stated that he will setup a list of team members and equipment so the best response we can give him, the better off we are. It seems like our primary goal would be to stay ahead of the "real" data gathers and try to complete the grid to give them the best chance of gathering data for the entire plot.

Initially, I was excited about seeing Yosemite (which I haven't) and helping out. Now, I am also looking forward to meeting some of you that I only know by name and have never met.

My 2 cents,
Ric

Berk Blake, PLS CA · Post by **Berk Blake, PLS CA** » Mon Apr 20, 2009 8:08 pm

Jon and I will be there per the .pdf schedule already posted. We should arrive mid Friday afternoon (the 12th). It looks like we should be on the ground running grids on Saturday (the 13th). We will be leaving on Wednesday (the 17th). I assume that the camping and entrance fees are waived? I also assume that somebody has cleared the way for hot showers, somewhere? I plan on taking a look next month, maybe after the control burn, but most assuredly not on Memorial Day weekend. According to the NGS it appears as if there is a control point at the helipad. If so, it might make a nice RTK base station and get someone into the now famous Lutz Clearing for a tie to the grid.

It might be nice to know who is bringing data collectors? Or is it all to be done with field notes?

RAM · Post by **RAM** » Tue Apr 21, 2009 8:02 am

Ok,

I will get my toes wet. I am with Evan, and can only offer a day or two, depending on the upcoming fire season. I will see it I can provide the gps static if someone will process the data. (Trimble). I do know where ther are 2 control stations near the site, (3-5 miles). I will also work on a list of lodgeing spots. (alter. camps, etc.) And the ice cream is only for Evans' kids and wife.

Sunburned_Surveyor · Post by **Sunburned_Surveyor** » Tue Apr 21, 2009 4:27 pm

RAM,

I can process any static GPS data.

The Sunburned Surveyor

7702 · Post by **7702** » Tue Apr 21, 2009 4:47 pm

Why not let NGS process the data? They even provide UTM coordinates. We might be able to get by with fewer occupations (i.e., less work for RAM) and free up personnel for the rest of the project.

RAM,

If you prefer to use the two existing GPS control stations you mentioned, is there any way that you might be able to install control, while we're at it, that may benefit you in the future? It's not everyday that you have skilled volunteer labor at your disposal.

7702 · Post by **7702** » Tue Apr 21, 2009 6:32 pm

Landon,

I certainly meant no disrespect to you with the above comment about the OPUS processing. I have the utmost confidence in your abilities.

I had a week of production time studies training once and I've never been the same since.

7702 · Post by **7702** » Thu Apr 23, 2009 1:38 pm

Jim,

Unless you have a good reason for selecting 0,0, for the POB coordinates, you might consider using larger values to avoid negative coordinate values in the likely event that the survey control extends south or west of the POB.

It's also a good idea to reserve different numbers for the x and y values, so that you can tell at a glance if the value you are looking at is x or y.

You might try a starting POB value of x=1000m and y=5000m. Or something else you might like better.

Just a suggestion.

Rob_LS · Post by **Rob_LS** » Thu Apr 23, 2009 8:45 pm

We were all rookies once... Shake it off Jim... We've got work to do... Count me in, Ric... I will see what I can do about showing up with some gear... I may be able to arrive on-site on Friday June 12 with a pair of (or maybe 4 pair) RTK gear... Anyone have a few 100m cloth (fiberglass) tapes? Depending on plat density and terrain, not every line has to be run in... If we can strap some lines in, we'll be much faster. Whoever is running this put me on the mailing list... RobMcMillan@comcast.net

Sunburned_Surveyor · Post by **Sunburned_Surveyor** » Mon Apr 27, 2009 3:44 pm

I don't see any reason not to use OPUS, especially if it will save some time and effort. I just wanted to offer processing of static GPS data if it is needed.

I can show up with a couple of 200 or 300 foot fiberglass tapes. I don't have access to any guns or gps instruments, so I may need to team up with some one that has gear. I don't mind being a rodman.

Landon

RAM · Post by **RAM** » Sun May 03, 2009 2:49 pm

My 2 cents worth. Tie into existing know monuments that are within 5 miles of the site. Both monuments are adjancet to paved roads. Ine static session with 4 units will result in ties to both stations and 2 points near the work site. Opus in this area seems to be +/- 5' depending on your methoeds. Please keep in mind I AM NOT a gps guru. The reason for using known coords is the Park will be able to relate to the in house GIS. I have used both stations within the past year and guide to them. I will see if I can attach a couple of photos. Thought #2, don't rely on RTK. The timber in this region can be extensive. The work site is within 2 miles of several groves of Sequoia's. The Douglas fir and the Ponderoas Pine can average 75-100 ft in height. I am still hoping to be able to participate.

scarpa · Post by **scarpa** » Tue May 05, 2009 11:48 am

RAM:
YNP has several "in house" control points in the meadows near Yosemite National Institute ~1 mile "east" of the Tioga Road/Hwy 120 intersection. Our buddy Paul Pyle can help supply the data.
Jon

Ric7308 · Post by **Ric7308** » Fri May 08, 2009 6:55 am

Hi Everyone,

Here is an updated schedule showing Land Surveyor committment. If anything needs to be revised, please let me know.

Also, if you are planning on bringing equipment to be used, please email Jim (in his first post) with whatever your equipment is so Jim can compile a list. Mainly so we know what we don't have currently and what we will need prior to arriving onsite.

Thanks
Ric

RAM · Post by **RAM** » Fri May 08, 2009 8:28 am

I have other commitments on Fri 6-12 thru Sat, still trying to juggle stuff.

As a remainder, Yosemite has a strict Bear policy. All food and food packages, ie ice chests, etc, must be kept out of sight in bear storage lockers. This also includes toothpaste and other fu-fu stuff.

Bring LOTS of bug repellant. 3x strength DEET is best. PAst few days it has been near 70 in the day and near 40 at night.

Jon, I was aware of Paul's control at Crane Flat, but the source of the control is not very clear. I suggested the HPGN stations only because if needed I can walk right to them, having used both stations in the past year and the quality of the station.

I can generate a list of alternive lodgeing if anyone is interested. And can refer people to "What to see" while in the area. We do have a local brewery that is quite good as well as a few local winery's. And of course fishing is a choice.

Ric7308 · Post by **Ric7308** » Fri May 08, 2009 8:53 am

Brewery and Fishing...cool!! That may bring in more land surveyors.

what was the original reason why we were going to Yosemite again?

Rob_LS · Post by **Rob_LS** » Sat May 09, 2009 8:08 am

Hey Ric,
Please revise the schedule to show me there Friday - Sunday June 12-14

Hope to see you there... Which way to the fishing?

The Crane Flat Trail Map shows a road that leads right to the site -

Will we be able to access that road for our survey operations?

7702 · Post by **7702** » Sat May 09, 2009 12:34 pm

I have a Leica TCRA 1103 survey gun with the onboard Leica data collection. Caltrans might still be using some of these. I'm not all that thrilled with the onboard data collection and was wondering if anyone had an external data collector that my crew could use for the Yosemite job? It would probably be more efficient for surveying the plots.

I have a HP48 with the TDS basic cogo, but it doesn't have data collection capability.

Any dealers out there have something we could demo?

Thanks for your help.

Mark

Berk Blake, PLS CA · Post by **Berk Blake, PLS CA** » Mon May 11, 2009 5:46 pm

We visited the site Saturday by walking into it from the Merced Grove Parking lot. There is a existing control point in the planter for the parking lot (MGROV or DF8617). Easy to access, if there is parking. Jim is correct on the locked gate. It would be nice to get a key rather than a unlock A.M. and lock P.M. or maybe we could lock a combination lock into the present system. I carried my old Promark2 with me on the walk and found the reception to be highly sporadic, canopy varies from completely covered to fairly open.

We also went to the Crane Flat Lookout and looked for the 2 R.M.'s that were set in 1956, but no luck. A rtk base could certainly be set on the North end of the ridge that the lookout is on. It is definitely vehicle accessible as long as the gate at the highway is opened. The fire crew there said to do so would require permission from the Park. I would think if RTK is what you want to try, then static from MGROV to the ridge and one or two of Jim's grid points, solve it then set the base. I believe that it could be left there rather safely.

I personally think that RTK is going to be spotty, so I'll be running my portion on the ground. The easy access from Merced Grove Parking says that the first grid ought to begin at the L-1 or M-1 point. One crew to push the L (or M) grid East, one crew to push the 1 grid North and one crew to push the 1 grid South. The North and South crews could turn 90Â° at their respective ends and head East. The East crew could turn 90Â° at their terminus and run either North first or South. That should set the box pretty well.

I don't see walking down from the lookout as easy in and out. My guess is that the jumping off point is the end of the dirt road for everything. I also don't see this as anything but work. We are not to do any brushing, so like Jim says, we will be leaning brush, small trees, etc. out of the way. I see many setups, short back sights and references to some grid points. If there are 650 points and the average point is 10 minutes, then we need 108 hours to complete the task. 10 minutes might be overly optimistic, but its a start. I know I can give 4 days to the grid. Three crews might get the box by Sunday evening. So, if we had 4 crews, one could start the intermediary grid lines?

Jim will need an elevation at the L1 or M1 grid point, rather than the A1 grid point. Back sight basis needs to be here, too.

As I said earlier, I'll be bringing my data collector with Jim's grid already in it. So, I'll be running x,y, and z at the same time. I think it would be nice to have a data collector on each crew.

Lunch, water, material? Who carries it? Efficiency probably means people delivering it to the crews as they go.

Just my observations.

Berk Blake

RAM · Post by **RAM** » Tue May 12, 2009 6:22 am

Rob,

The Merced river within Yosemite Valley and along hwy 140 is highly accessible. The Tolumne River is also nearby but takes some driving to get to. The lakes in the Tolumne Meadows area should be snow free by that time as the snow is melting quick.

Dave Karoly, PLS · Post by **Dave Karoly, PLS** » Fri May 15, 2009 9:44 pm

I probably can help out on 6/12 to 14. I own a bluetooth Carlson Explorer with SurvCE 2.x and a Topcon 3005LW total station with poles and targets. I've also connected my DC bluetooth to a Leica 1200 series TS and it worked like a charm. That's when I was using my personal DC at work for free.

I also own two laptop computers with Carlson Survey 2008; both are WiFi but the batteries are weak. I take the batteries out and run them on a 200 watt inverter (one at a time).

I also have 3 ProMark 3 GPS receivers that can do static and post processed stop-and-go, so no layout but they are good for additional measurements on control if they are open enough.

Whoever is in charge just give me control and an electronic coordinate list and we'll be off and running. That's a pretty big grid, particularly if it's in the Forest, I don't think several crews will conflict too much if we have enough control points.

I have to check with my scheduler before I commit though.

7702 · Post by **7702** » Thu May 28, 2009 9:00 pm

Due to some unexpected complications, I doubt that I will be able to make the trip. Things may change for the better over the next two weeks, but I can't count on it.

Thanks for your understanding.

Mark

JKnox · Post by **JKnox** » Thu Jun 11, 2009 11:35 am

Greetings,

It's looking like I may be able to join the fun up there. I'm 90% certain I can come, arriving either Saturday or Sunday late afternoon, and staying until Thursday the 18th, perhaps longer. I will bring a Leica 1103 total station with a Trimble TSC2 data collector with the grid points loaded, tripod, and prism pole. At this point, just lacking details on camping facilities, etc. Showers nearby? Are there any slots in large tents, or is everyone bringing their own small tents (I'm a bit camping-gear challenged)? Plenty of hot coffee to thaw out with in the morning? Do we need to bring any food? Is it pretty straight forward finding the campground, and is it easy access for a sedan? And just how cold is it up there (we Southern Californians are spoiled - I haven't seen my breath in many years)? Sure wish I could bring my trusty razor-sharp Fijian machete, but perhaps that's not appropriate.

If someone has any information for me, it could help bump my 90% chance of involvement up to 100%.

John Knox
LS 6365
infiji@yahoo.com

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