Corner Records - Responsible Charge Duties

[subman]

If a company has Surveyor A in responsible charge of the field operations and Surveyor B in responsible charge of the office mapping operations; can a Corner Record be filed with Surveyor B's stamp and signature showing Surveyor A's set tags and monuments?

[Lee Hixson]

I don't see why not.

[RAM]

Nope, that would require both to sign. I would treat as a map. You cannot sign for the work of others. One exception is death of individual.

[Lee Hixson]

Better yet, why not have both surveyors stamp and sign?

[mpallamary]

There is a board opinion out there that addresses this issue. Time permitting, I can try and find it. Curt Brown and his partner Albert Daniels did this all the time. Curt signed the surveys and Daniels set the monuments.

[subman]

There may be particular circumstances that prevent Surveyor A from signing and submitting the Corner Records. I am looking at the Successor Licensee provisions in the Board Rules. "Unavailable to complete the project" can be for a number of reasons, not just death or retirement.

(c) Successor Licensee. In situations when the professional land surveyor or legally authorized civil engineer in responsible charge of a land surveying project is unavailable to complete the project, a professional land surveyor or legally authorized civil engineer (hereinafter referred to as the “successor licensee”) may assume responsible charge of the project as long as the successor licensee exercises the extent of control and assumes responsibility for the surveying decisions as required by subdivision (a) and meets the criteria described in subdivision (b), as well as meeting the requirements of the Professional Land Surveyors’ Act and Sections 411 and 415. Except as provided in Section 8761.2 of the Code, the original licensee is not relieved of any responsibility arising from the land surveying services of which he or she was in responsible charge.

[subman]

Mike

I would appreciate a copy at your convenience. Thanks in advance!

[mpallamary]

Please find one opinion prohibiting it. I believe there is another allowing it. Searching.

[Lee Hixson]

That's just the opinion of counsel for the Board. My own opinion is that CA laws do not prohibit multiple stamping. As long as each licensee's responsibilities are spelled out, what's the problem? Other states allow multiple stamping; it's a sound practice.

[Jim Frame]

My questions is, why would anyone want to do this? If the project runs off the rails every surveyor with his name on the associated documents is going to get sued anyway, so why not limit it to one?

[dedkad]

My questions is, why would anyone want to do this? If the project runs off the rails every surveyor with his name on the associated documents is going to get sued anyway, so why not limit it to one?

Agree.

[Lee Hixson]

My questions is, why would anyone want to do this?

Because it is more ethical. More accurate.

Firms all across the state, every day, work on projects where multiple licensees are in de facto responsible charge of portions of said projects. This is especially true for the larger firms or for projects where multiple firms are involved. Firm A is in charge of ground control. Firm B does the aerial photography. Firm C handles the right-of-way engineering. Firm D does the construction staking.

Yet all involved pretend that one licensee is in total responsible charge. I turn your question on its head: why not stop pretending and have each surveyor take overt, responsible charge for the portion of the project that they were actually in charge of?

[Jim Frame]

why not stop pretending and have each surveyor take overt, responsible charge for the portion of the project that they were actually in charge of?

Because lawyers won't stop pretending that everyone in sight is responsible for his client's damages and attorney fees.

[Lee Hixson]

So what?

Since lawyers will go after everyone, anyway, the point remains that it would be more accurate, more ethical for each licensee with responsible charge to stand behind their portion of the work.

[Lee Hixson]

Here is a more complete statement of my position on multiple stamping:

https://archives.profsurv.com/magazine/ ... spx?i=1800

[Jim Frame]

Far be it from me to discourage any licensed professional from taking on all the unnecessary liability he or she wants.

[Peter Ehlert]

Excellent article Lee. I either missed it or forgot it.
I do agree.

[Anthony Maffia]

At a large firm I know of, the principal signed as surveyor for all work products for professional liability reasons. I appreciate that, as subordinates who'd stamp & sign docs would've had to maintain insurance for their time at the firm after they'd left.

[mpallamary]

Great article Lee!

[mpallamary]

Found it:

CALIFORNIA CODE OF REGULATIONS:
411. Seal and Signature. . . .
(g) (1) All professional engineering plans, specifications, reports, or documents (hereinafter referred to as “documents”) shall be signed and sealed in accordance with the requirements of the Professional Engineers Act and any other laws related to the practice of professional engineering and shall be signed and sealed in a manner such that all work can be clearly attributed to the licensee(s) in responsible charge of the work.
(2) All maps, plats, reports, descriptions, or other professional land surveying documents (hereinafter referred to as “documents”) shall be signed and sealed in accordance with the requirements of the Professional Land Surveyors’ Act and any other laws related to the practice of professional land surveying and shall be signed and sealed in a manner such that all work can be clearly attributed to the licensee(s) in responsible charge of the work.
(3) When signing and sealing documents containing work done by, or under the responsible charge of, two or more licensees, the signature and seal of each licensee in responsible charge shall be placed on the documents with a notation describing the work done under each licensee’s responsible charge. (h) Each licensee shall include the date of signing and sealing immediately below or next to the signature and seal.

[Lee Hixson]

Thanks, Michael. Is there a way to find out when those were codified?

[mpallamary]

Yes, but it will take some time. This is a perfect example of something CLSA should pursue!

[PLS7393]

Corner Records seem a little over-kill to have two surveyors sign and stamp. Would one sign Page 1 of 2, and the second sign on Page 2 of 2, due to space limitations?

I have seen record of surveys where two surveyors have signed the map, and believe they were from two companies working together.