Chain!

Dave Karoly, PLS · Post by **Dave Karoly, PLS** » Sat Dec 20, 2014 11:01 pm

Here is a Messiah reference for the board...

The crooked, straight and the rough places, plain...

LS 4722 · Post by **LS 4722** » Sun Dec 21, 2014 6:02 am

dewardkb wrote:There are multiple examples of you ignoring the monuments on the ground, why try and deny it? Anyone can see multiple virtual pin cushions who looks at the drawing. You seem to be saying you ignored it because it is disturbed yet this information does not appear on the drawing.

Let's take another one then.....FD. RUSTY SPIKE AND TIN 0.2' DOWN - NO REF - S 57 deg E. 0.18' FROM LOT LINE AND R/W LINE INTSECTION

How can you deny the fact this drawing has "pin cushions"?

Let get one thing clear Deward. A 'pin cushion' is setting an additional monument near one that was already there, this is clearly not the case.

The spike I call off is being controlled by two different monumented lines. The centerline of Melwood Drive and the found monuments that define the line of Tract No. 10001. One of the tract monuments is an original 2" IP, the other one is a 4" x 4" redwood post in a 6" iron casing, most likely set by the
subdividing engineer, Edward Lynch, who surveyed most of that area in the 20's and 30's.

Next time you start throwing rocks just be careful you don't break your own window.

Two attachments

PS I know I said I was quitting this thread, but I changed my mind cause Dewards grasping at straws to find fault has been bugging me.

Keithwill · Post by **Keithwill** » Sun Dec 21, 2014 12:42 pm

Olin,

You posted...Except, there is a pipe at your front right corner that does not fit this pattern. It is perfect for street alignment but short .15' for stationing to the nearest point to the north, and long .15 to the nearest point to the south.

Are you actually worried about that kind of measurement?

Johnston · Post by **Johnston** » Sun Dec 21, 2014 4:39 pm

It's my understanding that you are retired from BLM, and I assume are used to dealing with large rural properties. Given that, I can understand that you seem incredulous about 0.15'. However I think you need to come out of the BLM woods and realize that there are many instances where 0.15' would be considered excessive by surveyors, such as those working in any area where the the building setbacks are zero, the land and improvement values are sky high, and the 150 year old control points are only a half block away in each direction. You cannot ignore the context as you seem so willing to do.
I'm not saying what you should do with the 0.15' (there are likely more factors than I described) but given the context you've got to look hard at it, like Olin is obviously doing.

Keithwill · Post by **Keithwill** » Sun Dec 21, 2014 5:31 pm

It is true that I am retired from BLM and we did not have many resurveys where your kind of measurements were bandied about.

But.....and it is a huge but......Is it not even more important to recognize and accept existing monumentation rather then ignore acceptable monuments and set new ones at your precise measured distance?

There is a reason why those monuments are the and have been accepted by the landowners.

Imagine the look on the faces of the land owners when they pay for a high priced (in their minds) survey and they then see two or more monuments that the surveyors cannot agree on!

I have yet to see an answer to my repeated questions about present day surveyors accepting my numerous 1/16 sec. cor. monuments that I know are no where close to your present day precise measurements.

Answer that legal question and then we will talk about measurements the length of my middle finger.

Keithwill · Post by **Keithwill** » Sun Dec 21, 2014 5:41 pm

Simply said, a monument that the landowners know is there and is 0.15 ft. away from your measured distance is not easy to ignore!

As I have said before, get out of the machine handbook and take the dusty legal book like the BLM Manual off the shelf.

LS 4722 · Post by **LS 4722** » Sun Dec 21, 2014 7:20 pm

Amazing huh?

LS 4722 · Post by **LS 4722** » Sun Dec 21, 2014 7:29 pm

..like Olin is obviously doing.

He is

1. Ignoring a previously established and land owner accepted corner in favor of math adventures.

2. Biased in his survey to give the client building a new house the maximum frontage he can.

3. Slandering title of the next door neighbor.

4. Being afraid following surveyors will contradict his acceptance of the pipe not realizing that just about any court in the land would agree with his acceptance of the pipe.

Keithwill · Post by **Keithwill** » Sun Dec 21, 2014 9:18 pm

Maybe Lucas is referring to the monuments like posted above in the #105 picture?

Suppose?

Olin Edmundson · Post by **Olin Edmundson** » Mon Dec 22, 2014 11:02 am

Keithwill · Post by **Keithwill** » Mon Dec 22, 2014 11:08 am

Olin,

I would suggest a reading or rereading of Lucas's rant on pin cushion corner monuments and determine the difference between legal corner monuments and mathematical projected corner monuments.

LS 4722 · Post by **LS 4722** » Mon Dec 22, 2014 11:22 am

"Slander of Title" for calling off a monument that has no other pieces of evidence to corroborate? Please!

Suppose you pincushion. The client gets his frontage. The home sells. New owner doesn't get along with his neighbor. Has a survey done. His surveyor uses your record and monument and locates the block wall. Wall is reported to be 2 inches over line. He sues his neighbor to get the wall removed and replaced, and yes this has happened a lot.

Court takes place to hear both sides. A survey is produced that shows your monument and record. Opposing attorney produces a 25 year old survey that the neighbor had done and who built the wall according to the pipe.

Now what do you say when the judge asks you why you did not accept a 25 year old pipe?

Keithwill · Post by **Keithwill** » Mon Dec 22, 2014 12:31 pm

I absolutely cannot imagine rejecting a monument that is my middle finger length away from a projected mathematical position?

Olin Edmundson · Post by **Olin Edmundson** » Tue Dec 23, 2014 12:41 pm

LS 4722 · Post by **LS 4722** » Tue Dec 23, 2014 12:52 pm

.. A preponderance of evidence, I think this is what they would look to..

Maybe surveyors do, but acceptance by title owners common to the pipe trumps it all.

..The truth is that surveyors today and 100 years ago could measure

Unfortunate that you come back to being able to measure and cannot see the greater picture.

This is probably the blame of those who mentored you.

PS It's not about creating new corner positions, it's about discovering where existing ones are.

Edit: Preponderance of Evidence

A standard of proof that must be met by a plaintiff if he or she is to win a civil action.
Legal term. All plaintiff has to do is mention the pipe.

Sorry :P Just had to throw this in

Keithwill · Post by **Keithwill** » Tue Dec 23, 2014 2:31 pm

Heck, maybe we do need a new law that says that an existing monument within my middle finger length SHALL be acceptable?

Judgement is out the window, so need a law to tell em?

Hey land surveyors, I am kidding!

Olin Edmundson · Post by **Olin Edmundson** » Tue Dec 23, 2014 2:34 pm

Keithwill · Post by **Keithwill** » Tue Dec 23, 2014 2:41 pm

One thing I know, Olin can measure a lot better than I could 40 years ago!

Matter of fact, that may even mean something? To some anyway!

Keithwill · Post by **Keithwill** » Tue Dec 23, 2014 4:37 pm

Olin,

Are you a civil engineer?

Olin Edmundson · Post by **Olin Edmundson** » Tue Dec 23, 2014 5:53 pm

No, I'm just a fence builder...but I like to get those things right on the line

Dave Karoly, PLS · Post by **Dave Karoly, PLS** » Tue Dec 23, 2014 6:08 pm

I'm betting Olin is a good Lutheran, all their women are strong and their children are above average.

Keithwill · Post by **Keithwill** » Tue Dec 23, 2014 6:24 pm

Dave,

I am Lutheran and you are exactly right.

Keithwill · Post by **Keithwill** » Tue Dec 23, 2014 6:25 pm

Fence builders are not interested in distances less than a foot.

Olin Edmundson · Post by **Olin Edmundson** » Tue Dec 23, 2014 6:47 pm

Yes, wife is strong on chain to make perfect measurement, she can carry my transit through the woods and cut brush too!

Keithwill · Post by **Keithwill** » Tue Dec 23, 2014 8:31 pm

Enough of this thread!!

California Surveyors Forums

Chain!

Dewards pincushion comment no. 2

Keith: YES

This picture is for you Keith

Just what is Olin doing?

Olin

Olin